who promotes the best all around RABBIT DAWG?????

[scott calkins]

yes you are rite as long as you are happy feeding your dog it doesnt matter . but question was what format promotes a better rabbit dog in your opp. so to merly state a formatt and not give a logical reason foryour basis of that opp. is mute .so iam sorry but to reply means you either state why or why you dont like a format. not bashing just giving reason for my opp. and yes i like running with people in a none trial situation more but face it trialing came about to promote a better rabbit dog not trial hound. iam guessing thats why the question of what format promotes a better rabbit dog and not which promotes a better trial hound.

[fulcount]

SMall Pack On HARE in my opinion promotes more of an all round Rabbit hound
They are similar to the Midwest and just about as rough on the start but the winners packs usually show the best

[old blood beagles]

1. AKC SPO.
2. ARHA PP.

[Danny King]

arha pp with the right judge you get some judges that thinks they should pick up dogs if they dont run like gundog pack when i judge i let the dogs roll alittle bit

[foxxy]

arha pp with the right judge you get some judges that thinks they should pick up dogs if they dont run like gundog pack when i judge i let the dogs roll alittle bit

i agree with you on this

[LIVE WIRE KENNELS]

PERSUE WITH THE INTENT TO CATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pete Tuck]

The same can be said with all registries. The only formats I have run are ARHA Little Pack and Progressive Pack. So I can't say anything about who promotes the best dog. I can say, however, that in my opinion, little pack has gotten better than it was when I first started trialing.

[hounddog]

[ So I can't say anything about who promotes the best dog. I can say, however, that in my opinion, little pack has gotten better than it was when I first started trialing.[/quote]

I'll have to agree! I have seen a big difference in the style of hounds in lp in just a few years. All positive may I add.
I hope it continues!

hounddog
Jim Umbarger

[Spruce Ridge Beagler]

I personally don't feel that any format promotes a true rabbit hound just as many have said ! Gun hunting promotes a rabbit hound plain and simple !
I run little pack , there are 6 clubs within 1 1/2 hours from me. I have read a lot on this thread about how rough little pack is, and it can be, some cast winners at this years world hunt would not live here. I can tell you this though, I have a little bitch that measures 12 3/4, she took her first to champion out on hare and she did it from behind. She only has one first as a champ but on that day she owned four big males, showed them the rabbit over and over. She is not fast or flashy, just consistent with line control and inside check work. Last I looked she was first for HOY in little pack as well as MI HOY. Consistency, thats a rabbit dog ! I gun as much as I trial and she is the first dog in the box. I put her in one SPO hunt recently, Muskegons SPO hunt ( she did not place but she did stay down) I had a great time and seen some good hounds, met some good people. I will go back to an SPO hunt despite the fact that the judges only seen 20% of what actually happened. The 20% that I saw was impressive to say the least.
I don't feel it's the format, it's the dog ! I am not promoting or bashing any format, there are too many variables with the main one being judges. You could hand pick one dog from each one of Dannys' choices and have a rabbit hunters dream pack. I have had fun at every format I attended,I have bred to or purchased pups out of champs from all, most are gone. There is good and bad in each and every one.
So which format did I vote for ? I did not cast a vote as there was not an option for gunners

[LIVE WIRE KENNELS]

I ALSO DID NOT CAST A VOTE.I'VE NEVER RAN IN ANYTHING BESIDES MID-WEST,AND SURELY IT'S NOT THE ONE THAT PROMOTES THE ULTIMATE RABBIT DOG.THINGS HAVE GOTTEN WORSE SINCE I WAS LAST IN FIELD TRIALING.I HAD QUIT FOR ABOUT EIGHT YEARS DUE TO "BUDDY JUDGING".IT'S A SHAME TO THE MAN THAT CALLS HIM-SELF A BEAGLER AND JUDGE TO NOT GIVE EVERY DOG A "TRUE LOOK".HECK,THEY ALREADY KNOW WHO'S GOING TO WIN BEFORE THEY GET THERE.BUDDY JUDGES;YOU KNOW IF YOU'RE ONE OR NOT'ALL I CAN SAY IS SHAME ON YOU.I DON'T SEE HOW YOU CAN LOOK YOUR DOGS IN THE EYES.YOU'RE TRUELY A DISCRACE TO ALL!!I'VE ONLY BEEN TO A FEW THIS YEAR(SPO TRIALS)AND HAVE NOTICED THAT NOT ONLY DO THEY (SOME SPO JUDGES)NOT REQUIRE THE DOGS TO HUNT,BUT THEY WON'T EVEN ALLOW IT."HANDLERS,SPREAD OUT ACROSS THIS FIELD AND SEE IF WE CAN'T GET UP A RABBIT"THAT'S A PHRASE TOO OFTEN USED.I'M BRIAR SHY AND MY NOSE ISN'T MUCH EITHER.THAT'S WHY WE HAVE DOGS,THEY ARE CALLED "HUNTING DOGS" LET THEM DO THIER JOB AND HUNT.I THINK ONE PROBLEM CAUSING THIS IS SOME OF THE JUDGES NOT TAKING THIER JOB SERIOUSLY.I'VE HEARD THEM SAY "GUYS,LETS TRY TO HURRY UP AND FIND A RABBIT,I GOT SOME S#!& I GOT DO AT 2:30"COME ON GUYS,THAT'S CRAZY!!! TAKE IT SERIOUSLY,YOU HAVE THE HONOR OF WATCHING THESE HOUNDS,AND PLACING THEM ACORDING TO YOUR OPINION ON THEIR PERFORMANCE ON THAT DAY.REQUIRE THAT THEY "SEARCH",AXE THEM FOR BACK TRACKING,GIVE EVERY DOG A FAIR SHAKE,DON'T JUDGE THEM ON THE FACT OF LIKE OR DISLIKE OF THE HANDLER/OWNER,AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR DESIRE TO RUN THESE DOGS FOR MORE THAN A HOUR(MID-WEST) STAY HOME AND LET A JUDGE THAT DOES TAKE HIS POSITION SERIOUSLY COME AND GIVE HIS OPINION THAT DAY.IF YOU REALLY DON'T WANT TO JUDGE,THEN DON'T.IT'S ALL ABOUT THE DOGS,AND THE LOVE OF THE SPORT.

[Matt Wilson]

Good post Live wire. I have only been to a few spo and I dont see how a format can promote the best all around dog when they dont score on hunt and jump. Isnt that the most important thing a dog should have you cant run rabbits without jumping them first. I am sure you can kill rabbits with dogs from all formats.

[island ridge hounds]

rabbit dogs and trial formats, hmmmm. i'm not sure it should even be used in the same subject. very good questions and i think one of these days someone will come up with a
format that will suit rabbit dogs. i would have to say right now they suit the people that
put there dogs in certain trials. i do believe everyone is on track. i would have to say
lp is out unless your talking about just one dog running that rabbit. if your talking about
a pack of hounds pp or gundog brace would probably be more suited. there again its all
in what you like. i run lp and in competition i have seen four to five dog packs that can
flat scold a rabbit, but then theres hounds in the same format that would mess the race
up over and over again. i really think you can say the same about every format.

buddy wall

[mtnwaykennel]

You don't have the one that promotes the best hound. You should have put.... sitting on a rock after three hours of hammering with your friends. That my friends is the best rabbit hounds. When you have hunted and feel good about your hounds... like the hounds you buddies put on the ground, discuss the goods the bads and the uglies (in beagles and life).

I have hunted UKC and ARHA .... but for some odd reason... at the trials... I still kinda do the same thing. Look at others hounds... talk over the goods and bads and have a good laugh or two. So I reckon they all need a vote, cause if you have the right state of mind, they all promote what you want. Hounds that run a rabbit... and make your heart go boom!


Bill Woods

[danny vansickle]

i absolutly agree that midwest and pparha/ and ukcperformance pack . arha lp doesnt have enough emphasis on line control and not enough rules to weed out dogs with bad habbits that messes up a race they just promote big loses by only scoring 15sec loses and no check area is unbeleivable in my book . and mouthy dogs tend to do good in arhalp i firmly believe that arha lp was set up to cater to hounds that are to rough for akc . but a true hounds man nows this . but we all have some of these hounds and can shoot rabbits over them . but they are not the ideal rabbit dogs . and a dog that runs med.fast and very few breakdowns puts more pressure on a rabbit by not allowing himto rest our do tricks. that is a rabbit dog. and that is what akc midwest/arhapp/ukcpp/ promotes clean line control dogs that put pressure on rabbits by not having big break downs,

well said,i got my start in arha lp,some of my closest friends run there and i have told them over and over,if ya really want to see if your dog has what it takes,run akc midwest,shure,everyone feals the format they run is the best but a true houndsman must agree,15 seconds is too long,mouthy dogs need shot,and swarpin and swingin on the outside is not running the rabbit,it is running the other dogs,fighting for the front and cheating to get there,too much inphisis is put on the front in my book,if your out there,ya need to do it right,prime example,edinburgas last hunt,my buddy,who will remain nameless,was all pumped up cause his dog was runnin the front,well,it was also overshooting the line and giving mouth,needless to say,that dog and the other three doin the same thing was the first dogs off the ground...............


tom floyd said it best at southern wva last year............


"all that speed and drive means nothing without a checkdog behind ya tellin ya wich way to go"


i am not badmouthing any format,they all have thier good points and bad,arha is very exciting,but,what can ya really tell about a dog in 60 minutes?

the best thing i think about akc is ther is no hunt and handling bs,just the other night i was running with a guy at belleville,he was braggin on how he won a hunt recently at ironton,it was a 30 minute final,2 dog,the dog he was runnin against pulled a minus for not producing,the final was 0 to -10,so,that dog earned itself a win and will be a lp champion without even letting out a single bark,that was something to be very proud of and to brag about

if ya get a win in akc,ya earned it,we run all day long,the best of the best is in akc,of course,that is my opinion,just like a holes,everyone has one

like i said,all formats have their good and bad points,but,somethiung i noticed about this thread is the people giving thier opinion but have only ran one format,try them all,like myself,i have never ran ukc,but from what i have been told,ya have to be true mothed and on the line,so,i am goin to check it out cause that is the two things i look for the most in a dog,i hate a rough running dog and mouthy dogs are worthless..............

arha lp is very exciting,but i think they need to reinstate the babbling rule first off,and drop the 15 second rule down to 10 or 5,too many times i have seen a dog dominate a cast and get a ton of 5 and 10 second checks but loose to a dog that barked all over the place and kept the race tore up enough to grab the few 15 second checks and get the win,some people like that but to me,that is a piece of shyt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Briarhoppers]

My definition of a Rabbit Dawg is one you can take to field and consistently kill rabbit over. I am not a field trialer - probably go to 2 trials a year - that's it. I love to gun hunt and pleasure run my dogs year round. So my thoughts are based on somewhat limited experience. The only option really in middle TN for med fast beagles is Little Pack. And the only thing I can compare it to is gun hunting and real running situations. First of all there is nothing like real gunning over a dog to evaluate the dog. All field trials will fall short.

On the casts I've run in and the casts I've gone to watch or to handle a dog for someone else in I'd say more times than not the dog that wins the cast is not the dog I'd pick to gun over. This is certainly not always true. But I've also heard from several people at the trials that the dogs they put in the trials are not the dogs they hunt over. If they are not good enough to hunt over and are winning field trials, something is wrong IMHO.

First of all what I really like about little pack is that points are given for striking and jumping the rabbit. Dogs have got to hunt and jump their own rabbits.

What I don't like is how checks are scored. For a pack to score high, there has to be alot of checks created. And the 15 sec. check is too long. Most checks (no forward progress) should be solved in a matter of seconds. So that means the dog getting all the 5 sec. checks and cleaning up the race is not getting any score. And many judges around here will cut the check time off at 3 min. and call for handlers to handle their dogs and move them. That is when the "savior dog" earns his / her keep - to solve those long checks where the rabbit pulled a dissapearing act and usually the judges yell dead track way to soon. If I'm rabbit hunting - I'd let the dogs tell me when that track is dead.

I know you got to have rules to judge hounds and not any set of rules is going to be perfect. And I've enjoyed my time at the trials everyone I've met is great and I've enjoyed the fellowship.

-Pete