No Respect

[timberdoodle]

darn near forgot, joe west, have to disagree with you on beagles always being a poor mans sport. when you look back to the founders of this sport in this country i don't think there was a poor man among them. took an awful lot of doing to buy and transport hounds from merry ol england to get us started. most of the poor people back then spent their money on absolute basics. It was the rich industrialist who actually got us started in the blood lines that we currently run.

[New York Hillbilly]

Say what ever you want but as far as I am concerned anyone that can hand over $30,000 dollars for any hunting dog is far from being a "blue collar" guy. Believe it or not that is 4 times more than I paid for my first house. As a matter of fact it is not much less than I paid for my land that I hunt ($41,000 for 200 acres) and built our current home on. I hate to generalize but when it comes to bird hunters from what I have seen there are lots of money types into it. To me it always looked like what fly fishing is to fishing. Big business city guys wearing there freshly pressed "slacks" , matching name brand game vests, sporting fancy engraved imported double barrel shotguns. They spend the day shooting at birds that have been pen raised and then placed in the field. And in the evening they eat chef prepared gourmet meals and washing it down with fine wines while they talk stocks and bonds. I have never seen a bunch of grubby, Wicks wearing, loud laughing, pick up driving, fried food eating, blue collar guys invited to hang out in the Country Estate with these guys.
Thems the types of guys I hang with! As far as I know stock is what I see walking to the barn every morning to get milked. Bonds are what I have to post when my family gets out of hand over the weekend. And I still fish with WORMS!
Peace,
NYH

[windy hollow]

back when I was a younger everyone had a birddog or two, and at least one coon hound, and my pop had a beagle,while everybody was walking those birddogs, we were hunting with our hounds, and occasionally would get a cockbird or two, and the other hunters called us pot hunters.
because we went in where we could ambush the game, and waited.
now thats the way my dad hunted small game, and thats the way of the beagle, thats what you have beagles for, if your in the briars, or the bushes at all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,your dogs aint workin.
call it a poor mans hunting dog or what you may but I've been noticing more beaglers now than ever before in my area anyhow.just my 2 cents

[windy hollow]

And I still fish with WORMS!
Peace,
NYH

hey hillbilly they have pills for that !

[Mike Thoms]

Bluegrass,
NYH just answered your question. In my opinion, the price difference between Beagles and Bird dogs is caused by the very guys he described as bird hunters. Yeah they've got the money to spend on dogs, club memberships, guns and fancy clothes and that drives the price up. That doesn't mean they're better breeds or harder to train, there is just a group out there who is willing to pay more. Most people in bird dogs are thankful for that group of people whether they get money from them or not, because indirectly they do all get money because of them. I don't like the snobs either, but as someone with bird dogs and beagles, I thank God for the snobby rich guys and gals. Remember this also, any dog that's any good of any breed has been made that way by some grubby guy with mud on him driving a truck. You only see the bird dog owners, cause the normal grubby guys who trained him are driving to the bank. There are also common blue collars like us feeding or setting pheasants, guiding bird hunters, turning their farms into game clubs and making a killing finishing pups, all because of the rich guy. I'd love to pick up a gun dog magazine and see an article on beagles, just once. I'd like to read an article in Field & Stream about beagling on the regular pages, not just the insert pages for your region. Sadly I don't think it will happen because money rules in this world. Personally, I kind of like not having to take out a mortgage for a beagle pup, but with that goes the knowledge that I probably can't sell him for $10,000 in four years. Put an ad in the newspaper for beagle pups and don't put a price, and see how many will tell you they wouldn't pay $250 for a finished beagle let alone a pup. I guess as beaglers were doing better than some think we should. One good thing about the high price of bird dogs and their training is how mad the groupie wannabes(we've probably all seen them at the public areas, blowing their whistles and screaming like a lion is eating them while their dog does it's best Helen Keller impression) get when we head our little babies right through the field with all the flags and planted birds. I like to build on the myth and yell back "sorry about my dogs, darned stupid beagles" , trying not to smile too big as everything with a feather flees the snapping beagle jaws. Beagling is done out of love for the sport and that's not all bad in my opinion. MIKE

[bluegrass]

Mike, I really do understand the way things are about snobbery and "rich"vs "grubby". I think it is good that you are able to make a decent profit on birddogs. I agree with you about wanting to see more articles and tv shows about rabbit hunting. I read that rabbits are the most hunted species in this country, yet try finding a rabbit hunting show on the outdoor channels. I have seen them before, but they are rare, especially for the most hunted game in the U.S. It does seem to get back to the almighty dollar since the sponsers for these magazines and hunting shows are predominantly outfitters and hunting guides. Maybe if rabbits were not so easy to hunt, for the most part, beagles and beaglers would be a little higher regarded. I know that birddogs take a lot of training, but where is the BIG difference, after they are trained, in what a bird dog does and what a beagle does??? I know beagles are just following their breeding and instincts, but doesn't a pointer do that also??? Or am I missing something and do birddogs hunt contrary to their natures??? Tony

[timberdoodle]

hi tony, birddogs are trained to quarter, sweeping back and forth in front of the hunter, a pointer has to hold point and allow the hunter to flush the bird, a fiinished bird dog should be steady to wing and shot and retrieve when given the command to do so including a blind retrieve where the dog does not see where the bird went down. in addition a dog hunting in a brace has to honor his bracemates point. not all of this comes naturally to most dogs. a lot is required. not minimizing at all the effort put into our hounds but i give alot of credit to the bird dog people as well. been on both sides of the fence and know the work involved and the fun!! but to answer your question yes bird dogs are required to do things that does not come quite naturally.

[NC Beagler]

I personally think it takes much more effort to train and finish a bird dog. Used to raise bird dogs and my father had them while I was growning. Now keep in mind I have beagles now and perfer them - so this is not me taking sides - rather just trying to offer an objective opinion. I remember thinking one day about a year after I switched to beagles how relatively easy beagles were to deal w/. I would guess that its takes at a least 3x as much work, time and effort to break and finish a bird dog. By the time a beagle is 9 months old you can easily have it circling its own rabbit, gun broke, even deer broke and obey voice commands. Most bird dogs take over two years to reach the equivalent. I also think the nature of the training is different. W/ beagles the majority of the training is simply giving the young dog the right experiences and nature takes over. Training and handling a bird dog is much more interactive. Just my $0.02.

[Mike Thoms]

There is another area of disrespect in our breed, the trainers. I'd put the dog knowledge and effort of any man or woman who consistently turns out top beagles in the same category with any bird dog trainer. Knowing what experiences the young beagle needs and when isn't easily or quickly learned. Unfortunately for the same reason as the other slights beaglers endure in the overall hunting dog world, these top breeders get no recognition outside of the beagle world. Ten thousand books & videos on bird dog training making them rich idols of the dog world and our top guys get a picture in the rabbit hunter and maybe a big trophy or two, it's a shame. Only we beaglers know that there folks in our midst who have as much if not more ability than any trainer with a touring seminar or a video. I'm sure we'll all agree with that. MIKE

[New York Hillbilly]

Mike,
YUP!!
NYH

[DG TX]

What I see as the worst problem in our breed is the pet dog industry. Other folks see this. Not many puppy mills have bird dogs in them, with maybe the Irish Setters being the exception to that rule. And look what it has done to that breed.
Most of us can field trial with a good pickup, a sky kennel and a good hound. Try doing that with a good bird dog. BUT, then I don't think I would care for Dauchund field trials but I ain't gonna disrespect them folks. To each his own and LET'S ALL FIGHT THE ANTI'S