Culls

[old blood beagles]

Bunnyblaster, point well taken but I believe that our definition of a "cull" rabbit dog is to different things. When I talk about a "cull" rabbit dog from my kennel, I am talking about a hound that does not fit in with the pack that I am running. For an example, I like running tri colors or as close as I can get to that and therefore a true bluetick I would consider a cull from my kennel. Or a hound that is to slow or to fast for the type of hounds that I run, I would also consider a cull. There might not be anything wrong with this hound and for a new guy/girl that is wanting to get into this sport it will make them a good hound. With that being said I always tell the new blood what I dislike about the hound and inform them of the conditions when they take it. When I talk about a "cull" beagle this is a hound that I dont ever think would make a rabbit hound and they would go to a good home as a pet.
A prime example of what type of person I am is about 5 years ago I had a litter that came from a very good line of hounds with the sire and dam at my kennel and I asked my wife to list the 5 month old pups on the internet for 200.00. Within a day I had a lady call me and she stated that she wanted ever pup that I had (3 total). The next day a lady pulls up in my drive way and she and three young kids (13 and under) get out and run over to my kennel. Each child picked their own pup and was playing with it in the yard. The lady walked over to me and handed me a check that was already filled out for 60.00. I told the lady that the pups were 200.00 each and she stated that on the internet it said 20.00 each. MY WIFE LEFT OUT AN EXTRA ZERO. So there I was with these pups that have been out in the field with my older hounds and they were showing interest in rabbits and a few barks here and there and should have made good rabbit hounds. I looked over at her kids and saw the joy that has come to their face and handed her the AKC papers and told her that I hope that her children would have a great time with them.
Now on the flip side of this, I had a very well breed trained hound that was 4 years old and made very few mistakes. I would hunt this hound as hard as I could and got alot of enjoyment out of her. I never entered her in any trials, she and I was just gun hunters. Well a friend of mine that ran in trials was hunting with me one day and he knew of this hound and after seeing her run in the wild for about 8 hours he offered me 800.00 for this hound!!! I started thinking about it and made up my mind that I was not going to sell her because of what type of rabbit hound she was. He then offered me 1000.00 for her and I am not a rich man and 1000.00 is alot of money, so I sold her. (I "culled" her for money). I have been kicking myself ever since the early 90's because I have never had another hound like her.
I dont try to make money off of rabbit hounds, and I have given away more good hounds then anybody that I know of. I can count on both hands the number of hounds that I have sold in the past 20 plus years and one of the best things that I have done was letting the three pups go for 60.00, and one of the worst things that I have done was sell that bitch 1000.00.
A "cull" rabbit hound is any hound that you get rid of for speed, mouth, color, money, swings, skirts, dont explode out of the check and for any of the other reasons that it does not fit in with you kennel, all the rest is just beagle dogs and they will make somebody a good pet.

[bucks better beagles]

old blood beagles wrote:
In my eyes a well planned, researched litter of pups should start off at 250.00 and up, and a trained rabbit hound at the age of 2 1/2 should start at 750.00 and up and if your hounds are not worth this amount then they are "culls".

I can see that I live in the wrong part of the country. Or, I simply am not in the same league as a lot of you. Any pup (no offense, just my opinion) that sells for $250 at 4 weeks old is still a crap shoot. Around here, you can get a pretty good dog on trial for $300 or so. If good dogs start at $750, everything I know of would be a cull. I hunt everyday with anyone that wants to run and I have seen but very, very few dogs I would give that much money for.

Again, Just my opinion. Please no offense.

Bob-from the cheap part of Michigan

[Shotgun John]

Prices themselves are different depending on location.These seem to be an average here in va. These are dogs that have never been trialed.

An AKC REG. pup six weeks old sells for$175.00- $200.000
Started hound ....$300-$350
Broke gundog 3yrs $500-$600

[SwampBuck]

My question is, are field trial dogs the only route to "better" the breed?

[crittergitter]

the thing that amazes me is alot of people claim that they love this stuff ! if i have a pup that i take out and work with ( which i truely love ) , get him started ( which is prolly my favorite part) , get plenty of exersize and fresh air while doing so , continue to work with it until he is a finished , broke dog ! ( which is the most satisfying of all ) am i going to charge a little more for him , prolly , but still within reason , no way am i going to try to get everything i have invested , why ? because i truely love it ! cannot see myself exspecting someone else to support my hobbies ! if you truely love to run and work dogs, that would be like charging someone for all the fun you had in a car when you sell it , i beieve them when they say " i love this stuff " if i was getting someone to pay me that much for having so much fun i would too ! i dont have world beeters but they can run some rabbits ! do i have alot of time in them ? YEP ! do i consider it work that should be reimbursed at sale , absolutly not ! i work enough already , when it becomes work i will give it up and find another hobby !

[old blood beagles]

Critter, I would not expect to get everything that I have invested in a hound back? On the flip side of that, I am not going to sell one of my hounds to a dog trader that is just going sell it to another person in a few weeks or a month and put an extra 100 or 150 on top. I do love this sport and have been gun hunting for over 20 plus years. I just now started running in AKC trials and am having a great time. I do believe that spending 200 or 250 dollars on a well breed started pup is a fair price.

[BCBeagles]

Critter,

You sumed it up well. And I agree in part. But, you put in the work to create value in your hound. If you price that
hound for 750 or 50. It is a value set by you. I have had both coonhounds and beagles as long as I could follow my dad
through the woods. I have sold some coonhounds for more than I would ever pay for a beagle but, if it was what I wanted
that could change! I have recently put some money, a lot for my standards, in two real nice females. They are what I
wanted to build on and the money was not the issue. As a hobby, I do this for fun and the love of these little hounds!
I think you can put value on something that really fits your goals or plans. If you put a price on a real good
dog you can put the value you want on it. Not everyone is going to think that value is correct. But, value and satisfaction
are in the eyes of the beholder. Hunt what you like and hunt the best you can afford. My opinion is you will be satisfied!!

[old blood beagles]

My question is, are field trial dogs the only route to "better" the breed?

SwampBuck, I would say no. The last hound that I breed to is not a field trial hound although his sire and dam were. I ran with this hound and liked what I saw and I am very familiar with his sire so I desided to go with him. Having FC's and LPGRCH in your depigree will help you deside if that is the type of hound that you are looking for. What I like to look for are the hounds form the 70's 80's and early 90's in my pedigree because those hounds were rabbit hounds first and trial dogs second. So many hounds now are just being trialed and not hunted and I believe there is a big difference.
For me to "better" the breed is for me to better my kennel with rabbit hounds and passing them on to my friends and letting them tell me if it was a good cross or not. Now I dont want to step on anyones toes by saying that todays FC's and LPGRCH's are not as good as the ones from yesteryear and that they are not rabbit hounds because they very well might be. The question that I would ask is in 10 years what hounds would you like to see in your kennels pedigree?

[Laneline]

I believe many on here are talking about two totally different things, and the reason I am commenting on this is because I firmly believe in “culling”. So to borrow a few words from one of my all time favorite TV shows and “Barney Fife”, I will say “what we have here is a failure to communicate”.

The terms that have always been used to me were “Culling” and “Sifting”.

Culling would be the “elimination” of dogs that possess and reproduce traits that are wrong and faulty to any hunting beagle regardless the type, speed or format that any hunting beagle is from. (Heredity health problems, No Hunt, Quitting, Backtracking, Ghost Trailing, Excessive Babbling etc…)

Sifting would be the “separation” of dogs that do not fit the needs or personal requirements for an individual, kennel or pack. (too slow, too fast, lack of mouth, too much mouth, size, color, swings too much, wants the line more than he wants the rabbit, too shy, too bold etc…)

Where many people disagree is in the category of “sifting”, simply because everybody has their own likes and dislikes when it comes to a hunting beagle. But concerning “culling”, there needs to be a common ground established where there are certain traits that won’t be tolerated by any beagler from any format. Those “culls” need to be eliminated from the “hunting beagle circle” and their papers destroyed so they do not misrepresent the “hunting beagle” and the dogs given away or sold as pets only. The point is, if you stay with a certain line and you cull heavy now, you won't have to in the future. I feel that will better the breed of the hunting beagle.

People continue to sell this definition of “culls”, because they can. There are plenty of people out there that will buy them. It is the same with cars, houses, tools, appliances, etc… These “people” usually feed off individuals that are new to beagling or using a slick “tongue” or crafty advertisements, selling dogs and pups that can’t backup all the red ink that is in their pedigrees. This is wrong and this is what tarnishes beagling today. But there are some fine breeders out there with some great dogs. But you do have to be selective.

This is why about 7 or 8 of us have a little circle of our own. We all have the same style of dogs with similar pedigrees, characteristics and traits. We buy, sell, breed, trade, run, argue, debate, dispute, correct, cull and sift among ourselves. It has worked for us for years. I would advise any group of friends out there to start your own little network and stay with-in it and not chase fads, pedigrees or advertisements. But don’t get me wrong, there are exceptions. An occasional out-cross to a “world beater” that shares the same traits, style and characteristics as your dogs, except better, is worth looking into.

As far as the price of a hound? You really can’t knock a man for what he “honestly” feels his hounds are worth. You simply buy it or you don’t, you don’t degrade him. You raise your own or buy from someone else. Those that are out there that are “less-honest”, I would completely stay away from, regardless of what their dogs are or what their dogs are out of. I simply would price a pup or dog according to what I honestly would be willing to pay for it myself. But even that varies, 5 dollars may mean more to me, than 500 dollars to you. I still eat cornbread and beans and enjoy a coke with a moon pie {banana chocolate}.

Just my opinion, Jim

[old blood beagles]

Diet Dew and Banana Moon Pie, earlier this evening.

[mrbazile]

SwampBuck wrote:
My question is, are field trial dogs the only route to "better" the breed?

Not to ruffle any feathers but I would have to say no, this is only my opinion, I have seen field champions and grand champion dogs that were not good rabbit dogs some of which would never look through a collar of mines, I have also seen trail dogs that were good ones in field trails and under the gun, I have also seen fabricated Fc and GRFC that when its time to go hunting these dogs are left in the kennel not because of their worth but because of their inability to circle and account for their game and these are hounds with titles. I think bettering the breed is ones individual effort and can be achieved through the culling of hounds with inferior and substandard traits and also through selective breeding. When I say culls I am not talking about hounds of a color or style I dislike I am talking about dogs that after all possible efforts cannot jump, circle and account for their game. The dogs I consider culls are the ones that can’t move a track, extreme shyness, physical abnormalities and hounds that are extremely mouthy, these are hounds that I would cull to eleminate the passing on of inferior/substandard traits and these are NOT the hounds I would give to a youngster or someone you are trying to introduce to beagling. Would you give a youngster a car with faulty brakes, same difference.

[crittergitter]

old blood , $200 - $250 is a fair price for a well breed , well STARTED pup , i personaly wouldnt pay that for a young , unstarted pup , no matter how well breed , but to each there own , in my neck of the woods that price will get you a broke dog that you can kill rabbits in front of from day one !

[crittergitter]

hey Ed , theres another guy near me that gets that too and he sells with limited registration , and he has a whole kennel full most of the time , i cant put on here what i told him ! i see pups in the paper every day that are mixed breeds for $600 and $700 too , but i aint buying them either ! dont have to spend that for a rabbit dog that suits me ! , know all about those grade dogs ! , have 2 in the kennel that run a rabbit just fine , 1 is 6 months old and been runnin rabbits for a month now and i have $85 total in them ! been shooting rabbits off of grade dogs bought as pups for $50 or less or broke dogs for $200 all my life and plan on doing it for the rest of my life ! see the difference in me and alot of people is that i dont care what others think and im not out to impress anyone ! like i said a high dollar rabbit dog is a status symbol , dont need a high price tag and a list of past champions that may or may not be in thier ped. to run my rabbits .im a simple man , ill take my culls and my grade dogs and load them in my plywood dog box thats in the back of my $500 truck and have just as much fun killing rabbits with my used 20 gauge HR single shot as the next guy ! prolly more , i dont have to mortgage my house to do it !

[B-man]

old blood , $200 - $250 is a fair price for a well breed , well STARTED pup , i personaly wouldnt pay that for a young , unstarted pup , no matter how well breed , but to each there own , in my neck of the woods that price will get you a broke dog that you can kill rabbits in front of from day one !

Hey Critter,

Looks like I'm gonna drive to Michigan for my next dog. Here in NW Wisconsin (60 miles from St. Paul), pretty much ANY AKC beagle pup sells for $250 (male) and usually $300 for females. These aren't proven hunting stock, most are just for pets!! I consider myself very fortunate that my first hound even runs hare because I just bought it from the first guy in the paper (luckily he turned out to be a great dog). To be honest hunting with beagles in our area is a dead sport. The only other guys I know that have beagles to run are my own friends. We each got into the sport pretty much at the same time just to give it a try! Now we are hooked for life I'm proud to say beagling is slowly coming back to life here. I started running when I was 24 years old. Before that I had never hunted over a beagle or even been invited to do so (because nobody did it around here). Lots of guys run bear, coon, and yotes, but cottons or hare go unchased.

Anyways, I love raising a pup to be a great dog, but to buy a well running hound for $300 is almost worth the drive to see you! Hey you never know

[crittergitter]

b-man , the only dog i have in my kennel , that i bought already broke , i payed $200 dollars for and the guy had 4 for sale , all broke, all pretty equal and all priced at $200 , and all were AKC reg. i bought a female with a great ped . last summer to hunt with him until my pup got going, that would run rabbits all day long for $75 , AKC reg., once my pup got going i sold her because i dont keep females ( i live in town and females are a pain in my butt when in heat ) , nothing wrong with her at all and i sold her for a wopping $125 . have a buddy that just bought 2 real good, broke dogs last year for $150 apiece and they run right with my dogs , as hard as they are to find , there still out there !