LP Old vs. LP New

[pacheattack]

Myself and some friends were talking at work we were arguing they were saying Larry Bird, Jordan, Barkley, Dr. J and a few others couldnt play in the NBA today. they said NBA athletes today are to strong to fast and to athletic. I have been around long enough to see some of the greats run in little pack. the Bluebacks, waylons Bombs, cody's sharp jackson, bigtime among others. I wonder how they would run or compete with little pack dogs of today. Also list your top ten little pack hounds of all-time.

[ray s]

i hope someone responds to this question.i also i have seen the above dogs run,but haven't been to a trial since the turn of the century .i'm curious.

[JCM]

I have been lucky enough to run against some of the great dogs of ARHA LP. When LP first started, champion classes only had 3 entries and some of the early grands got there because there wasn't much to compete against. A lot of the early LP dogs couldn't even run a rabbit.

However, when you start mentioning Bomb, Blueback, Amy, Jackson, Little Time, Big Ben, and dogs that ran at that time, you had to have something special, a lot of luck, and have a good day to beat them. There is no doubt in my mind that these dogs would be just as tough today.

I think the hounds overall are a lot better today, but the great ones would still be great ones.

[taxidermyteacher]

In the late 80's and 90's I was very involved in ARHA Little pack hunts. I was fortunate enough to make a couple grand champions and several champions. I had the pleasure of running with many of the early big name hounds. During the Everett Morgan years of the Rabbit Hunter, I wrote a little. I was one of the writers of the "Interview with an ARHA Beagler" series. Through this I also had the opportunity to speak with many of the beaglers that owned the well know hounds of the time.

I began a new business that took an incredible amount of my time. Because of this, I have been away from competition hunts for years. Although I did not compete, I still hunted my hounds. I have recently begun to attend little pack hunts again. As one who has been away, and come back to Little Pack, I can give you my perspective on then and now.

I do not necessarily think that the "Good dogs" are much better now, than they were then. The good ones have always been good. I do believe that there are now more good dogs though. I ran in one open cast years ago, and the only dog in the cast that would even attempted to run. The others layed at our feet or dug up mice. Needless to say I would have been dissapointed to lose that one, even though the young dog I was running wasn't that great. This sort of thing probably won't happen as often now. From what I see today, most of the dogs that show up, if they catch the right breaks, are capable of winning a cast or maybe even the hunt.

I do think that years of breeding good ones to good ones has improved the breed as a whole. I think this contributes to this increased number of very good little pack hounds. But there were some pretty tough hounds back then too. As I said earlier. I had the good fortune to run against some fine hounds. Some with well known names, some without.

Coco-(Jacob James)
Craven's KY Candy
Spicer's Blueback
Sangamon Ridge Pearl
Cress Commanche Tracker
Tib-Bar T-Bone
Bramlett Blackhawk
Damron's Halftrack
Larsen's Native Girl

These are just some of many well known hounds that could hold thier own today. This is just my opinion and I am not listing nearly as many as I should. There is an equally long list, of fine, less famous hounds.

In the early days of ARHA, many great little pack hounds were local dogs, only competed occasionally. To fill the void when rabbit season was closed. Thier owners didn't drive great distances to campain thier hounds. They were rabbit dogs first and competition dogs second. Many were dogs that just ran loose on the farm. Hard driving, hard hunting "meat" dogs. No pedigree. Sadly, very few today would remember thier names. But I'll bet thier owners remember.

Chip Stamper
Honeyrun Beagles

[Laneline]

Though I have had beagles my entire life and was “raised” in the AKC, I first got involved with the ARHA in 1990-91. It’s hard to believe the time has gone by so quick. During the next 19 years I lived in Ohio, Colorado, West Virginia, Indiana and Tennessee. I had a total of 9 Grands and several Champions. I became a Judge {field & bench} Master of Hounds, helped establish 3 clubs, was a State Rep. and was a contributing writer, with about 40 overall articles over the years. I was involved in both the Little Pack and Progressive Pack. I also got to know and travel to conduct interviews with kennel owners along side other {great} contributing writers, who I learned a lot from. My point being, I was blessed to be able to meet some great beaglers and see some great dogs. Because of work and "life circumstances", I have not trialed for a few years, but I have maintained in contact with good friends that trial and continue to keep up with “Field Trialing” and I often run with many different people that do trial.

Now I am going to go “old school” and take you back to the early 90’s era and just include the dogs of the 90’s, Because I was there. I am not saying that these were the “absolute” best of the best, I am saying out of the dogs that I seen with my own eyes, and I judged most of them on several occasions and they were the best in my eyes. And this is not in any particular order.

Bredemeier's Sadie
Crain's HH Brownie
Cody's Sharp Mikie
Crain's HH Dusty
Cress' Comanche Tracker
Swartz Briarpatch Big Time
Bramlett's Blackhawk
Larsen's Native Girl
Spicer's Blue Back
Bruner's Big Ben

I do agree with the statement of that there are now “more” quality dogs on a % basis today, but I believe {just my opinion} that would apply to field trialing. As far as “gun dogs” and everyday rabbit hunting I would have to go with the %’s of old. Simply because years ago this style of dog in most parts of the country didn’t have trials to go to, especially “grade” dogs. So if a dog wouldn’t “hunt and jump” they were put down. Today, if some run a rabbit really good but lacks hunt they will still be trialed or sold as “brood” females because of their pedigree. Pedigrees were not as “high priority” so that temptation was not there. But years of competing and people having access to be able to breed their best to somebody else’s that was even better, develops higher quality of dogs over a period of years.

I don’t mean by the above statement that today’s dogs “couldn’t” make good “gun dogs”, I am saying the whole motive for many {not all} trialers are to breed and combine dogs for the traits and characteristics to win trials, which consists of three main things. A competitive spirit “to dominate and lead”, to run a line and to claim heavy “with authority” with their mouth. All these things are great and are a necessity to win, but as for the extreme gun hunter, the emphasis for “extreme” hunt, a mouth that you could bank your salvation on and a little more {not too much} independence to be able to solo as equal to any pack is desired.

But times have changed and people don’t and can’t gun hunt like they used to. I would love to see the %’s of the dogs used for trialing 20 years ago that had over 200 rabbits killed over them a year, compared to the %’s of the trial dogs today that have 200 rabbits a year killed over them. Many beaglers today don’t see a purpose or need for that, and that’s not a bad thing, its just the way many people feel today. Its just, if you were to have said that to a gun hunter 20 or 30 years ago they would have looked at you like you had a third eye in the middle of your forehead.

Field Trialing today has taken over and has an identity of its own and to many, is separate from gun hunting, and I think that’s ok for many people, to each his own. Now it’s more of a thing where a field trial is the place to find out who has the best “field trial dog”. The “ARHA” used to be just a gathering place for gun hunters to see who had the best “gun dogs”, and then it exploded. Morgan didn’t have a clue what he was getting ready to start. At one time if you put the words “field trial” and “beagle” together it was automatically assumed it was worthless to gun hunt with. People may claim that they are one in the same or at leased supposed to be, but there are those “small” differences that have always existed and always will, because regardless what the rule books state, a couple of those differences determine if you win and/or dominate in the trialing circuit.

If many of you remember, back in the day there were mostly only trials in September, and then March thru June. In the beginning it was rare to have a trial during hunting season in any state, if you did you would get very few to show up. Most were gun hunting.

There are many “great” dogs today, but there were great dogs back then too. I would pick 5 out of the list above and run with any 5 of today. Not all of them produced but they were rabbit dogs. I am not saying that they were better, I’m saying today’s dogs are not. The pendulum is still swinging and the beagler’s best “well rounded and total package” hunting beagle has yet to come.

As a trio, out of the above list {if it were possible} I really believe I could have taken Dusty, Native Girl and Blue Back and absolutely compete with most from any era, organization or bloodline. Just my opinion, Jim

[Alabama John]

JIm
I wish I could of written that. Amen And Amen! You sure have a talent for writing.

Even today so many of us here still will not have an AKC registered dog because of the olden times. If you say registered, you better explain what registry you mean and it better be ARHA or forget selling your dog.
One comment I would make is: The old timers that only bred for a real usable, producing, rabbit dog DID only breed best to best since a registry was not considered, (by far most were grade. Actually I never saw one that was AKC, but I go way back as I'm 70) and that is the method practiced for so many years that brought us the blood that was, and still is, used in the early and current successful ARHA type dogs. There were grade bloodlines considered though, but they were mainly local and were judged by those that actually hunted with them and bragged on their success in producing for the supper pot. Lots of that old time blood is still winning in Little Pack, may it continue forever more.

[Alabama John]

Three good ones I hunted with and liked and just happened to also be Grand Champions in Little Pack were: Skyview Cliff, Vest's Lacy, Willow Springs MacBlack, and something Oatmeal owned by Ted Peercy in Tennessee. In a normal hunt, we got 30 or more and some of these dogs had to quickly get used to running and swimming after BIG Canecutters here that they had never run before. Each one of the dogs adjusted quickly as a good dog always will. I was impressed.
I know there were others that were LP Champions and Grands that I have hunted with, but we were having fun hunting rabbits and watching each others dogs perform and some of the dogs that didn't trial were pretty good too.

[HLC_Kennel]

Myself and some friends were talking at work we were arguing they were saying Larry Bird, Jordan, Barkley, Dr. J and a few others couldnt play in the NBA today. they said NBA athletes today are to strong to fast and to athletic. I have been around long enough to see some of the greats run in little pack. the Bluebacks, waylons Bombs, cody's sharp jackson, bigtime among others. I wonder how they would run or compete with little pack dogs of today. Also list your top ten little pack hounds of all-time.

I have to disagree with your friends, back in the old school basketball they had something called Defense and they played it well. Nowadays its not biggie for someone to score 60 points every night. I think if Jordan, Bird, and Barkley, Dr. J was still around in the NBA, they would stop all these big scorers.

[carn]

native girl on my list would be the best i think if you would go to steve's dig up her bones place them bones in a box haul them bones to a trial and enter them they would out check todays hounds! i had the pleasure to have her in my kennel for about a year what a great hound she was fast and clean and would solo a rabbit check free she had enough points to go into the hall of fame three times (she won all of the big four) at the world hunt she was placed in the hall of fame on friday night and just to show everyone she was not finished she won the grand class on sunday what a weekend she was all harehound breed (paycheck)

[golden acres]

Native Girl just new what the rabbit was going to do before the rabbit new what it was going to do. The competition is much better Nowdays. In many cast now any dog can win it. In the early 90 and even into the late 90's cast were domintated and the same hound would win most the time if cast were ran over. Though I do believe dogs like Big Time and Bruners Lucky and native girl would compete as they did back then. I guess we could ask Earl bruner if Bruner lucky or Bruners Big Ben could run with Bruners Amanda. Just my opinion Back then rabbit hunters came to trials and now I believe Trialers go rabbit hunting. Guys run all year around now some everyday and back then at least myself only ran during rabbit season.

[Pete Tuck]

Having been in ARHA since early 90's, I would say that today's dogs, for the most part run a better line. I can remember judging dogs back when I could keep up better and remembering that dogs were getting checks 40 to 50 yards away from the check area. That's the way I see and remember it. Back then it was all about speed and getting checks, at least around here it was. Personally I like the direction the trials are going today. More of a cleaner hound that can get it done by itself or in a pack.

I can remember Everett Morgan, at a Little Pack State Hunt in NC, talking about starting a new division for the cleaner hounds. It turned out to be the progressive pack.

Some of the hounds I saw and judged were:
Cody's Sharp Mikie
Crain's HH Pop Fannie (one that really impressed me)
Bredemier's Ida C
Moore's Luke
Moore's Sparky (at age 13 really put a whoopin on the top two at a NC State Hunt)
Moore's Little Red
Ugly
Smith's Weedeater Rudy
Cress Comanche Tracker

The three Moore dogs and the Ugly dog were North Carolina dogs that I saw quite often, but they could get it done. Especially the Ugly dog.

[mike crabtree]

I dont know about the Old times in Little Pack, because I just started in late 2005. I do know that if dogs were any tougher back in the early days I may have quit pretty quick. Seems to me around here it is getting harder and harder to win even at club hunts.

[Big Dog]

I haven't seen all of the old timers run, but did get to see a few of them run when I first got in. I think that the dogs that won back in the day were better rabbit dogs, I see so many dogs placing and winning big hunts now that are rough as a cobb, run on the outside of the pack and refuse to even get in the race. Just running on the outside looking to swing out and jump another rabbit or cut the pack, many of the dogs that look good in Indiana would look like idiots in places where you don't have big running rabbits. There are plenty of guys that Have good dogs, but you better go see it run before you just say its a great dog because it won a big hunt or made grand. There are some dogs winning today that are strictly trial dogs, no good for rabbit hunting at all. Just telling the truth.

Big Dog

[Shot Caller]

Amen!

[S.R.Patch]

I mainly ran with Blackfoot and Bredemier, those hounds were run year round. Billy mostly just ran and I comented on his hounds eating rabbits and the lack of rabbit left for the pot, all he would say was "these are field trial hounds, if they don't run to catch, they don't suit me".
I hunted with Joe a good bit and Mikie is still the most powerful hound I seen eat a rabbit, wished I could have seen him go on a hare! It was a race to watch him, pop fannie, pretty lady, frog and crazy lock on a rabbit
Don't fool your selves about pedigrees, some of these hounds had pedigrees and those that didn't soon had them established, their dad and mom may have been known only as Blackie and Sue, but the first thing that was established on these ARHA hounds was the start of a pedigree and don't think the trial winners didn't work at wraping up the blood and quickly learned how important the pedigree was, Why! I watched guys fight for pups out of the Apache X Little Red cross and the Mikie X pop fannie cross...yep, blood and pedigree ment alot to even a bunch of ole rabbit hunters and alot of that blood was bred together to form kennels of today...