Speed and running on snow

[Guest]

This is an interesting thread.I'm an avid hare hunter in Northern Ontario.I dont find the distance between the hare and the dog vary that much with the conditions and the speed of the chase.After the hare jumps with a burst of speed they generally slow then guage the speed of the dog on that particular day.Which relates to the conditions.On the real tough days when the dogs have to walk them out after a couple circles the hare is generally just being bumped along thirty ft or so in front of the dogs.I don't think this really leads to alot of cold trailing.There is the occasional hare decides he's going to visit his friends three swamps over that can cause a cold trail, gone like a rocket.

[TomMN]

Joe, I agree with everything you said. There is one point I am trying to make however. I think you hit on it when you said "When scenting is terrible fast AND accurate isn't possible. If the hounds are both fast and accurate then the scenting isn't terrible."
Scenting is never terrible when you are right behind the rabbit. No matter how cold or dry or how deep the snow is, if a hound can get close to the hare and stay there it can run fast and accurate on any day.
Pete, went out this morning. It was -27 when I got up, I waited till it got up to -14 to go out. Started out slow, just brought two of my best along. Once they got the rabbits up and moving they had some good runs. Hunted some thick stuff so it was tough to see anything but I did see a white blur go by a couple times.

[snowshoehareguide]

tommn those are some good dogs to run in those temperatures.. pete

[Joe West]

TomMN: Your missing my point. When scenting is terrible the hounds cannot stay close to the game. At least none that I've ever seen. When scenting is terrible it's terrible and it doesn't matter if the hounds start off with a sight chase when they loose sight of their game they will be stuck with poor scenting that will be impossible to run fast and accurate.

[Hare Hunter]

Pete, the conditions you describe I just don't run on, fortunately here we don't get extended conditions like that, in January more nights then not were in the -10 to -20 degree range but day time would get in the -10 to + 10 area, I do agree with you that a dog that runs to catch is the kind of hound you need in extreme conditions and I get the best runs when I solo dogs in tuff conditions, my opion is that if you are running more than 1 dog that runs to catch in those conditions they will mess each other up more often as they need the front to smell the hare. Is that lack of nose? I don't think so, I call that desire. When it is +10 or more I run a pack, less then that temp and I tend to solo. Good running. Hare

[Steve C.]

To Guest from Ontario; we're seeing a phenomenon here in Maine that we generally only experience in March. By that, I mean when we jump a hare he may head out 1/2 mile or more in a straight line so that you'd think you have a fox or deer run, much like we see during the breeding season. The dogs have a hard time keeping scent if the hare gets too far ahead and they either lose him or degenerate into picking at the line which grows older and colder by the minute. I can only attribute this tendency to coyotes but it's only a guess.
Joe, I agree with your point about scent being good if a hound can run it, but how do you account for those few hounds who are able to run when virtually no other dog can? We've all seen it, though perhaps not often. I have memories of some great performances on bad conditions when few hounds could open and I don't mind naming names because these hounds deserve credit for superior accomplishment- at least on the days I saw them. Pete, I'm sure will be interested but there's no common thread to the breeding on these hounds. I saw Scott Wing's big male off Straight Arrow leave a good pack behind on deep powder in sub zero weather as if he were sight chasing (he wasn't) and drove the hare nearly out of hearing before another hound could move the line 20 feet. Sullivan's Lucky Lucy put on a show in near blizzard conditions at a trial at Sunrise when only 6 hounds were able to open all day. Mike Pott's BirchHaven Easy Goer can leave almost any hound behind no matter how cold it gets. Elwood McLaud's George dog can either walk a tough track when almost nothing else can smell it and if conditions improve will lead all day. Greenbrier BirchHaven Merlin could run on almost any day no matter how cold, crusty or old the snow was. Beaver Pond Branko was outstanding as well, as was Ray's Ben and Bessey's Black Alibi. Some of these hounds occasionally showed faulty behavior when conditions were good but when most hounds struggled, these hounds would leave little for any other hound to do. They're out there but pretty hard to have one in your kennel at any given moment.

[TomMN]

Pete, coming from you I will take that as a real compliment although I'm not sure I agree. I see plenty of room for improvement in my dogs.
Joe, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I've seen it done and I'm sure there are people reading this that have much better dogs than mine. Steve put it into words much better than I could have and I'll bet he has some in his kennel right now that would fit in with the ones he listed. One thing they all have in common is that they don't all come from one bloodline. You may find a hound bred from many generations of cottontail dogs that can run a hare in the worst of conditions when most hare bred dogs can't.

[Steve C.]

Tom, I only wish I DID have a hound right now as good as those mentioned. I have four hounds that I'm proud of in poor conditions, but this winter, just as the last two, we've had plenty of days where we went home emptyhanded. They've been able to circle game every time out, but many days it was a series of runs and long breakdowns with a lot of picking at bad tracks. These are very good dogs, and I'm never disappointed in the effort they put out, and their willingness to stick on a tough track and never resort to cheating or faulty behavior; but if they don't produce the hare, then they're not as good as a rough running dog who DOES produce game. I've been fortunate enough to have several top snow hounds in my kennel over the years, even if they were just loaned to me to keep them in shape out of the trialing season or given to me after their trialing and producing careers were over. It's really something to watch one of these older veteran dogs run at 20 below when others can't open. Sure helped my beagling education. I get asked all the time who has top snow hounds or which bloodlines produce the most, or where they can buy a good pup, but my experience is that they're wherever you might find them; and even a littermate to one of these great ones can't get the job done. The best I can do is to breed to one of them or get a pup off them and hope for the best. To date, I've bred exactly one great snow hound and he died as a derby after just one hunting season. Several others were exceptional but lacked the foot to keep pressure on a hare. A lot of them have been very good, but certainly not great. My efforts haven't been much better than anyone else's and not as good as some, but it's still top priority here. I have a very solid male right now that I wish would get bred to some top females as I believe he's producing some excellent snow hounds but I have only 2 females worthy of breeding that are still in their breeding years and he's now 10 years old. Despite his excellent trial record, no one seems interested in him.

[Chris]

I have a very solid male right now that I wish would get bred to some top females as I believe he's producing some excellent snow hounds but I have only 2 females worthy of breeding that are still in their breeding years and he's now 10 years old. Despite his excellent trial record, no one seems interested in him.

Trying to find your e-mail address Steve. I know I've got it somewhere. If I can't find it, would you please drop me a line? mail@milleroutdoors.com

Thanks.


It is odd how even extremely similar dogs on most going like bare ground or fresh snow can run so differently when it really gets tough. Sure makes it hard to understand. Some dogs just seem to 'have it' and others don't.

[Steve C.]

Chris, I can receive E-mail but can't reply and no one seems to be able to fix it. I understand that the pups you got from me a few years ago are proving to be pretty good, but didn't include them among my "Hall of Fame" snow dogs as I've never had the chance to see them for myself. But I know that few of us get out as much during winter as you do (and as I did when I basically had my winters free) and if you're still feeding them then they must have turned out OK. I've heard good reports about them. Interestingly, I still have the litter brother to the one great snow hound I bred but he's nothing more than a housepet. Worthless for hunting but a nice dog to have lying in front of the woodstove. I've toyed with the idea of trying him at stud on one of my bitches due to the quality of his parents and brother but haven't taken the gamble and likely won't- especially when I've got this very good male right now. Mac doesn't have the best nose I've ever seen, but noticeably and consistently very good and does everything else exceptionally well. I haven't had him out as much as I'd like because he's over 10 and has arthritic hips so don't want to overdo it. There have been days where he struggled too but still has the wheels to stay up close on a hare once he gets limbered up. I believe Aaron has a male off him that he likes. There's no stud fee on Mac as I'd just like to see some pups off him before he's gone but I'm also not interested in publicly studding him and making trips to the airport. When I get a day off work I like to be in the woods. If you're interested in him just give me a call. There've been darned few males I've been interested in breeding to and he's fairly high on my short list.

[Chris]

Chris, I can receive E-mail but can't reply and no one seems to be able to fix it.

Hard to diagnose without seeing the settings on your e-mail client. Your Internet Service Provider should be able to quickly and easily walk through it with you and diagnose the problem.

It might be worth your while to sign up for a free e-mail account with http://www.yahoo.com Very easy to use and you can use it anywhere you can get to the Internet.

I understand that the pups you got from me a few years ago are proving to be pretty good, but didn't include them among my "Hall of Fame" snow dogs as I've never had the chance to see them for myself.

I don't know if I'd put them in the elite class, either. There are days when the better of the two still can't get it done. One of them is exceptional -- the other is only average on really tough going. Neither one was worth very much on their first winter of gunning, but thankfully rapid improvement now makes one of them indespensible. I'd like to have a dozen clones of the better one. In fact, she's starting to swell up and it won't be long before she's 'ripe'. I'm still on the fence in regards to what she's going to hook up with. Time's running out. I've got to make up my mind. It doesn't help that I'm hunting all but 6 days between tomorrow and the end of March. Ideally, I'd like to get out a day or two with you.

This has been one doozy of a winter, and the thought of it keeping up and me having to lay her up for a week or two to get bred gives me heartburn. I've got a few others that can run well above average, but there's a big difference between very good and exceptional. Hard to find dogs with nose, brains and none of the overcompetitive crap that kills runs when it's tough.

Interestingly, I still have the litter brother to the one great snow hound I bred but he's nothing more than a housepet.

Goes to show that it's a gift that surpasses our understanding. One great one is worth its weight in gold. It'd be worth 10 times that much if it could reproduce their traits in its offspring.

Mac doesn't have the best nose I've ever seen, but noticeably and consistently very good and does everything else exceptionally well.

I'm beginning to think that it's the overcompetitive thing that's killing the dogs I'm seeing as much as it is lack of nose. A dog that has enough nose to gut it out and run a track with virtually no scent in it; even after other overcompetitive dogs continually charge ahead and screw the track up, is what it's all about. It doesn't take much of a dog to pound when scenting is average or better. What does take a lot of dog is to run that track behind other rejects and keep it going in spite of them, and not feel the genetic need to compete with unarmed dogs.

When I get a day off work I like to be in the woods. If you're interested in him just give me a call. There've been darned few males I've been interested in breeding to and he's fairly high on my short list.

I'm going to dig out your phone #. Maybe we can make it happen.

[Steve C.]

Chris, I believe you've nailed it! I think there are more than enough hounds out there who can do a good job on tough conditions but are short on "patience and determination" and long on trying to take the lead at all costs. No surprise when most trials I attend I see good dogs constantly trying to hark back up to the dogs who won't work a check, but instantly bound off pulling the pack along, whether they have the line or not. These faulty hounds stay down long after I'd have pulled them and the hounds trying to run the line honestly are picked up for "not enough score". A fellow with an honest hound soon tires of wasting his $15 and being "defeated" by a hound who may not be able to run his own rabbit without help from behind. That's not always the case but when that's what's winning, that's what they're bringing. The gap seems to widen between top snow hounds and field trial "high hounds". Overcompetitiveness is a curse and one I won't tolerate because I've found you can't hunt them consistently in a pack without constant breakdowns. I'm content to take a few ribbons each year at the trials and mostly have good days afield when gunning. I don't care about flash, I prefer blue collar dogs who give an honest effort every time out and will work as part of a team. You've got to have the nose to do the job but I've had a number of dogs not extraordinarily gifted with nose who'd account for twice the game as the great nosed hound who was overcompetitive and would create constant checks in his effort to outdistance his packmates. I want them aggressive, but intent on the game, not beating his packmates. That's the best I can shoot for, and every dog I have over the age of 3 shares this trait. Overcompetitiveness will get culled quicker than most anything else in my kennel, short of quitting or mouthiness. I'll be hunting tomorrow and again Saturday. After that, my schedule has some flexibility if you'd like to see Mac. Conditions are terrible right now- thin coat of crusted snow and minus 18 this morning. If they look good tomorrow, it'll be saying something.

[Joe West]

SteveC: There are many things that can account for one hound so outperforming the others. On powder the lead hound has the advantage of being able to run the tracks by sight; they must confirm it with their nose but good ones will look for the tracks and use their eyes as well as nose. Then of course a soiled line is not nearly as good as a fresh line. Sometimes once the line has been trampled there isn't much left. Then of course some hounds just are more tallented then others and such hounds can out perform their pack mates and show quite clearly that they are the best. Then of course some hounds are too independant and don't hark up to a pack mate who makes a find.

Certainly I've seen runs as you describe over the years. One hound simply outperforms his pack mates. But it was not foot speed that put that lead hound so far out in front of his pack mates. It was a combination of an at least good nose, experiance, and most of all intelligence. Not all of these chases occur in winter and can happen at any time of the year but they do occur in winter as well. IN some instances when one hound was way out infront of the pack the hound was not going as fast as one might think, that is, they were not running at their top speed but were just steadily going as fast as they could according to the conditions. A slow gallop combined with good line control and stready going was enough to put the hound way in front of packmates who normally would be right with that hound. It was NOT foot speed; it was experiance and intelligence combined with the just right conditions to allow it to happen.

The lead hound has the advantage of running on the best available scent. As he runs it he deteriorates the scent by running on it and under some conditions that simple act of running on the already fragile scent seriously deteriorates the line of scent. Naturally the lead hound must be a good one to hold on to that line BUT he will not be running, in most cases, at full speed. He will mearly be running faster then his packmates. He has the best scent don't forget.

Now sometimes the lead hound just outclasses his pack mates and the only reason he is so far ahead of the rest of the pack is he's just too good for them. There are many reasons we see runs such as these but none of them are due to foot speed alone.


TomMN: Do we still disagree?

[TomMN]

Joe, foot speed alone does not make a fast dog. If they cannot keep from losing the rabbit then they are going nowhere no matter how fast they can run. I guess this means we agree although it makes for a boring discussion if everyone agrees all the time!

[Steve C.]

In that case, in the spirit of keeping things lively and to save us from the great evil known as boredom, I'll say you're both full of it!