HONEST/FAIR MEASURING

[rabbitearl]

Now beagleboy are you saying us men that just rabbit hunt with our BACK YARD dogs are not good dogs.

[Bev]

bev i have ran in little pack,spo and large pack and have judge the same and still don't see were a couple inches would help a hound unless there would be snow when we go hunting we have never got a measuring stand out to see what hounds to take we take the best no matter what the size.its not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog that counts

carn, then perhaps you haven't been to enough Large Pack Trials, I dunno. All I can offer is if you don't mind your 13" dog running a fox for 4 - 6 hours straight in a pack of 20 - 30 or so, come with me to Canada next time I go. We'll see how he stacks up at the end of the day with my 15" dogs. My guess is my 15 inchers will have pulled the guts out of your little dogs. Not because mine are better dogs, but can an average 5-year-old kid keep up with a teenager on a dead run? How long would he last? Over the course of the day, how many more strides will your 13" dog have taken to equal the strides my 15" dogs took? Size matters. Maybe not in the 1 - 2 hour cast on cottontail, but on hare or fox day in and day out, 52-weeks out of the year it makes a huge difference. just my observation.

[carn]

bev you bring them big ol hounds over to ohio will run them for three or four days on deer and these little hounds will jerk there guts out. i ran a 13 1/2 " at cherryland in the !5"male a class of 52 i don't know if you have ever been there but its a pen in the swamp a nasty place i didn't win or even place but at the end of the trial there was only seven hounds still on the ground and my little male was one of them

[Bev]

I'd hang on to him for sure. Sounds like he has a ton of heart. I bet he has pretty good conformation, too!

[ackermanich]

Please read carefully, AKC rules state the following: " The contact bar shall be loosely placed across the shoulder blades at the the highest point, the hound standing in a (NATURUALLY ALERT POSITION) with the head up but not stretched upward and with it's feet well under it and forelegs vertical on a flat, level board with a non slip surface, placed at floor or ground level. The contact bar must never be set in advance at a specified height, but may only be set at the height of the particular hound being measured. The hound shall be (POSED) for measurement by the (MEASURERS), and once the reading has been made, no additional measurements shall be taken."

I am not debating that hounds should not be measured, and i am not debating that hounds should not be posed,and i am not debating that hounds should not be running in their rightful classes.

First of all it appears to me that different terminology is being used by some. The rules state the hound should be posed, refering to a naturual stance. Others prefer to replace the word POSE with the word STACK, which refers to piling up, or to make an addition. The rules also state the hound shall be posed for measurement by the measurers, which previously has been defined as the JUDGES. Correct me if i am wrong, and if i am i will be grateful, for a lesson learned, but i have not seen where a dog will be DQ. if it will not stand to be measured and i do not see where it is the handlers responsibility to pose the hound at time of measurement, when the rules state " The hound shall be POSED for measurement by the measurers" I have continually read post where some have stated if your hound will not stand to be measured it will be DQ., it's the rules, or it's the handlers responsibility to STACK their hound it's the rules. Please inform me where this is found within the rules, for i am not seeing it. Personally i feel if a hound will not stand to be measured a handler should work with the hound, outside of field trialing, and i also feel the judges should attempt to accurately measure the hound.

Another issue i would like to address, is that some hounds will not stand to be measured, and as i have stated before i know some handlers work with their hounds in a negative manner attempting to get them to cower under the stand, and this should not be condoned.I have seen people on this board state that they have owned, or seen friendly and bold dogs that will not stand to be measured, only to get shot down by accusations that their pups were not socialized, or being accused of trying to sneak into a class, and that it is not fair to the person, who has worked with their hound.How are these assumptions fair to a person, who has a hound that will not stand to be measured, or has worked trying to get the hound to stand. One even stated that they had owned over 100 dogs and never had a problem with any of them standing. How fortunate, but had all these hounds been measure at a field trial ?, around strangers,and around strange dogs? i highly doubt it. and there is a difference. I guess i don't understand why it is so hard to believe, that some dogs do not like being placed under a measuring stand. Just as some hounds will not pack, or with strange dogs ,or some act shy in the kennel, but are fine in the field, or some do not enjoy swimming, or maybe the hound was purchased off someone who never worked with the hound in the aspect of measuring. And sometimes this can not be changed no matter how much you work with the hound.Not all hounds have the same temperment. And i question why should this take away from a hounds ability in the field? At this point i think all we can ask of our judges is HONESTY, and a true houndsman,or honest judge should be able to determine if a dog cowers under the stand due to mistreatment, or temperment. One sure clue would be to observe the size of the hound, before it is placed under the stand. If you have been around hounds enough you will have a good idea what class it should be in before you take an actual measurment. How many of us measure a hound before we purchase it? don't most of us physically observe the dog and determine what class it will run in?

[ncbeagler]

a hound that has been trained to cower up, or growls or bites, or is naturally shy can't be measured.from what i hear it will be addressed more clearily about dogs that won't pose for a meaurement not allowed to compete.there was a hound that was allowed to compete a few years back that tried to bite the measurers on numerous occassions that was oversize.

[george pirman]

A very good post "ackermanich". You might add THE BAR SHOULD NOT BE DROPPED! " The contact bar shall be loosely placed across the shoulder blades at the highest point,! Many times you see the judge just unscrew the bar and let it drop 3 or 4 inches down to the dog and then the dog drops another 1/2 inch. The contact bar should be loosely placed across the shoulder blades. I think the bar should be unscrewed and then rest on the back of your fingers and lowered down very close to the dog. When your fingers find the top of the shoulder blades you should then loosely place the bar across the shoulder blades. DO NOT DROP THE BAR! George

[old blood beagles]

George, that is how Mel measured the other day a Jessamine. He lowered the bar with his fingers, had two fingers side by side under the bar then when he felt the top of the hound he gently placed that bar on top of them. I watched him very closely because I wanted to know how to do it. This did not alarm the hounds in any way.

[yellowdog]

A very good post "ackermanich". You might add THE BAR SHOULD NOT BE DROPPED! " The contact bar shall be loosely placed across the shoulder blades at the highest point,! Many times you see the judge just unscrew the bar and let it drop 3 or 4 inches down to the dog and then the dog drops another 1/2 inch. The contact bar should be loosely placed across the shoulder blades. I think the bar should be unscrewed and then rest on the back of your fingers and lowered down very close to the dog. When your fingers find the top of the shoulder blades you should then loosely place the bar across the shoulder blades. DO NOT DROP THE BAR! George

i have seen this many times myself in different formats and measuring in this manner will gain a hound an inch or 2 from the hound dropping at the drop of the bar...i have a question and please dont name names but how many hounds so far have had their card pulled?..i have seen quite a few popular hounds and some finished hounds that will go 14 or so that are being trialed in 13 also know of a few that are finished..will those finished hounds that are over be dealt with or have they proven their point and we will never see this pop up measuring deal happen again..just curious and not trying to start any problems..in my opinion if they are truly gonna make a run at enforcing this they should take a look at some of the finished dogs as well and strip them..cause it will continue to happen until they really crack down and make an example to what happens when you finish a hound that is over ..right?..or am i wrong?..if it is gonna work ALL should be re-measured and dealt with accordingly..anyway that is how i see it and i may be wrong...if i am steeping on toe i appologize up front but if you are offended by this maybe you got one pushing the bar yourself ...tracy

[old blood beagles]

The way that I understood this was they are not going to take away any points. They are just going to give the oversized dogs a new official measure card to fit the correct class. AKC is letting people off easy but I would say that if the cheating keeps on going that they might go back and look at the FC titles and points and may make more corrections.

[yellowdog]

The way that I understood this was they are not going to take away any points. They are just going to give the oversized dogs a new official measure card to fit the correct class. AKC is letting people off easy but I would say that if the cheating keeps on going that they might go back and look at the FC titles and points and may make more corrections.

ya know the old saying;whats good for the goose..in my opinion the only way they will stop this is to take a hard look at all the hounds fc or not and make some examples..i am all for this IF they enforce it across the board because as i stated before i have seen quite a few that are being campaigned or have already been given the fc title that are over and not by just a quarter inch..and this is all registries not just akc.but since we are talking about akc this is how i feel they should look at it..if they do not follow through with their pop-ins and sweep it back under the rug then it will only continue ..if they are gonna repremand some they should repremand all..that is the only fair way that i see it,maybe i am wrong..it should be a fair playing field in the 13 inch class and the 15 inch class right?..i am real interested on how this will fold out..i hope it isnt just a one time occurance if they are gonna do it i hope they do it to the full extent ..my vote says they should strip the 14 inch dogs that finished in 13 inch class and same goes for the 15 + inchers in the big class..is that a fair deal or not?..i think if that happened people would be alot less likely to run a hound in the wrong class dont you?

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

..in my opinion if they are truly gonna make a run at enforcing this they should take a look at some of the finished dogs as well and strip them ...tracy

Not going to happen.

[danny vansickle]

George, that is how Mel measured the other day a Jessamine. He lowered the bar with his fingers, had two fingers side by side under the bar then when he felt the top of the hound he gently placed that bar on top of them. I watched him very closely because I wanted to know how to do it. This did not alarm the hounds in any way.

you are excctly right,that is how they did it,but i thought the bar was suppose to be pushed to the withers,i dont want to argue,but,when my dog was officialed,the judges pushed the bar down to the withers,everyone knows that some dogs have very thick hair,especially heavy branko dogs,how is a thickness of a dogs hair goin to help it in the field,is it to the withers,or the top of the hair?cause they went to when the bar barely touched the hair.......

like i said,please dont start an argument here,but as a liscenced judge in two orginizations,i think myself and all the others should be on the same page........

and ackermaniach,very good post above,the proper way to pose a dog has been a topic here in akc and in arha,my dog would not stand,why didnt they ask me to help pose him,if that is the rules,then why didnt they?

[yellowdog]

if that was the case just shave your hound then it is settled right?

[danny vansickle]

if that was the case just shave your hound then it is settled right?

shave a hound,are you crazy,who in thier right mind would ever shave a hound??


ok,i will shut up now