HONEST/FAIR MEASURING

[greenbay]

Mel Stewart & Jim Odle ascend to the summit of the list! (my all time favorites)

[HatterasBob]

Mybeagles and Joe B.
I have never seen a dog stand with 1/16" increments marked on it. Scientific protocol states that a measuring devise can never be measured in increments less then marked on the scale, therefore your 13 1/16" would be a violation of scientific protocol. You are attempting the measure in accuracy that the measuring device was not design the measure. It would have to be either 13" or 13 1/8" now which is it? I further submit that if you can not repeat the measurement 10 out of 10 times then it has a variance. So, your measurement is 13 1/16" with a standard deviation of +- 1/4". I suspect you can NOT measure the same hound 10 times with less than 1/2" variance. My point is that the measurement of a hound is NOT absolute and any statement of 1/16" accuracy is crazy and wrong. I suggest that the AKC adopts the method of Canada, 2 out of 3. If one measurer measures a 1/16" over then they switch positions and try again. The third measurer is the scorer. Don't get me wrong, I don't like 14 1/2" bitches in my 13" class. Most of my females are 12 - 12 1/2" but not all. I certainly don't care about a 1/16", but 1 1/16" yes run the the big class. If we quit breeding 15 1/2 males with 15" female we would be getting 16" pups. I would be pissed if I had to run my 12" females in a 14" class because I breed correctly for the standard.

And yes Mybeagles, if I knew you would measure out a 13 1/16" hound and I had anything close (within 1/2"), I would stay home a watch NASCAR.
Personal choice!

[mybeagles]

I think your right about not having a 1/16" mark. I go with the first mark above 13" if thats 1/8" then 13 1/8 will send you to the 15" class. Very few dogs ever stand at an alert position and I estimate the average dog is getting 1/4 to 1/2" of leniency anyway, even when held up from their squat. Its an old argument, but 13" is the limit. If its a noticable measurement above its over. The bank doesnt give you an extra 25 cents, the supermarket doesnt give you an extra banana. Ive talked to judges that give 1/4" and others that give a 1/2", I choose not to give any and if Im wrong for that Ill live with the consequences.

As a judge and representative for AKC the rules plainly state one measurement. To be honest I think its rediculous all the time thats waisted measuring dogs at a trial. I cant imagine measuring 3 times. If there was any integrity in the sport it would shame a man to run an oversize dog.

Im in favor of all dogs being forced into getting official measurements. First trial you attend with your hound after 18 months old its officially measured. AKC reps should spot check any suspicious dogs and pull cards when necessary. If a particular judge is found to have 2-3 bad measurments he should have his judging license pulled until he attends "additional measurement training" If the violations continue a permanate band from judging. The fact that this even became an issue is an ugly mark on the sport. Its not an issue for me, I measure strict, and would be ashamed of running an oversize dog only to have his picture taken on a platform and my face in a magazine telling the whole beagling world that "Im a cheater".....

Mybeagles

[carn]

if i had to worry about a couple of inches i would really start thinking about my breeding. just wondering which is the worst crime in your minds running a over sized hound or running and finishing a hound with the wrong papers?

[Bev]

if i had to worry about a couple of inches i would really start thinking about my breeding.

I'm not criticizing, I'm just assuming you don't trial in Large Pack. There, you need every inch AND good breeding....and tip-top conditioning to make it all work.

just wondering which is the worst crime in your minds running a over sized hound or running and finishing a hound with the wrong papers?

Both.

My thought is if you're fun running or gun hunting, do what you please. If you're in an arena where people have put their money down to play, play by the rules.

[ncbeagler]

have seen at one trial where the plywood base use to measure dogs was warped.the board had to change as dogs were mesuring out that never had.they got the bord reaplced with new plywood the discrepancies cleared up.

[tinymwoods]

My thought is if you're fun running or gun hunting, do what you please. If you're in an arena where people have put their money down to play, play by the rules.

I personally think this is the root of the problem. Everyone is too concerned about the $$$$ part. I don't trial AKC only ARHA LP and I could care less about all the titles and cash. I do it for the fun and just to run dogs with good folks. I guess if I was spending big bucks to try and promote my dog and my name I would like to have a better chance to WIN. Maybe my dogs are just not good enough for me to have the concern. As far as measuring, breaking the rules in measuring is cheating. Period. No excuses.
In UKC they measue all dogs before the hunt. This is the way it should be in all formats. Kurt Douglas was the fairest I have ever seen at doing this in UKC. We had a dog not measure in at the Va state hunt once, and it was a dog that belonged to his friend that is in his home club. He said the dog had measured in before at other hunts and was close, but just a little too tall for the stand to touch the ground on that day. The handler blamed it on weight issues, but either way he stayed in the box that day.

[Bev]

You may have missed my point, Mike. It's not about the money won from playing, it's about the money spent to play. People can take losing to better dogs. What they can't take is losing to cheaters -- they are the ones who put so much importance on the winning that they will do anything to get it. They are the ones who ruin the sport for others.

[mn_beagleboy]

an asian couple goes to the doctor. they ask their doctor is there anything we can do to have a white baby. he replies there are many advances in todays medical technology but' 2 wongs don't make a wite".neither are right time to forgive and go on.

hmm........? how does Wong's and honest/fair measuring get in the same post?

[tinymwoods]

I do understand alot of people spend money to trial because they love it but I also know alot of people see the money spent as an investment. Either way, I do agree that when i go to a trial I want it to be fair and honest from the measuring to judging to showing. There are alot of great judges out there, more than there are bad ones I am sure. Why would judges cheat? That is what I can't comprehend. To help a friend? Because they are scared? To scratch a back? Why risk your integrity to help someone else? I am glad to see a list of good judges started, they should be commended for doing the job right!

[Steve Mikkelson]

I do understand alot of people spend money to trial because they love it but I also know alot of people see the money spent as an investment.

Investment? An investment is something that yields financial return above the cost of the investment. If there is anyone that run's trials for an investment, they will need to get in line for a government bailout. Investment, no way. Please let us know who thinks of trials as an investment as they can never work in a business envirnoment or the business would fall. With your comment, I guessing Obama trials beagles, but I have yet to see him at a trial (my there has to be a return to consider it an investment).

The average (lets say median) distance for the trials I travel to are 6 - 7 hours away (one way), and that is the NMHA and MWGDA.

- 650 miles round trip. 20 miles/ gallon = 32.5 gallons = $65.00 in just fuel
- $80 hotel
- $20 entry fee

One trial equals $165 without food, wear on vehicle, potential money that could have been made working, ect. How many trials does it take to finish a dog. Lets say they place in half of the trials entered, which would be a very good dog. Averaging 8 pts (3rd place w/ 24 enteries) every other trial knowing that there's a few wins and NBQ's to off set that. 120 points needed to finish = 30 trials. 30 trials x $165 = $4950 for that dog in just trialling cost

Now training - time running dogs when you could be earning money $$$. Lets just say it could easily be deep into five figures. Gas for the vehicle, wear on the vehicle, etc.

Kenneling, supplies and health care - you get the point.

Investment is the wrong term. How about a hobby that if you get a descent dog can off-set some of the money you are pissing away.

[yellowdog]

the ones that are making the money are the ones who trade dogs all over the country on the guys name that do the trialing and spend the time training and preparing their hounds and these guys never run a hound and sell it on the basis of your hard work..these are the ones that get me wadded up..sorry this was off topic

[tinymwoods]

[quote="Steve Mikkelson"]The average (lets say median) distance $4950 for that dog in just trialling costquote]

That is 25 stud fees, not counting pups the owner might raise. There are many dogs on here bred over 20 times a year, you always see pups for sale out of them. If you raise pups and sell them for $200 and sell 20 of them over the life of the sire, there is $4,000 more. Sure, not clear profit, but you can't tell me people that do this loose money. I would say this is less than 3% of trialers. Most of us could never even hope to break even and don't care the least bit about it. As long as I have a few bucks and time, I will run my dogs for fun and in trials when I can. If you wanna make a profit at dogs, don't get beagles. There is money in lap dogs though......

[carn]

bev i have ran in little pack,spo and large pack and have judge the same and still don't see were a couple inches would help a hound unless there would be snow when we go hunting we have never got a measuring stand out to see what hounds to take we take the best no matter what the size.its not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog that counts

[mn_beagleboy]

A lot of people say that a couple of inches don't matter, but it does. In a competition you are not running against the backyard beagles, you will be running against some of the finest hounds in the area that could possibly have the same qaulity your hound has but just a couple of inches bigger, wider, and longer.