AKC measuring at Jessamine Co.

[Ron Conroe]

nc beagler, very well said, if we play by the rules i think the classes well start getting bigger,to tannd, the judges are volunteers and the club pays them so when they take the job they got to play by the rules, you know what you are getting into to when you take the job, i know they take alot of crap but you got to know what your getting into when you take it. this is one of the best things that is happend to our sport in a long time, lets just hope it don't stop here, its got to start getting better it can't get any worse.

[drifter22no1]

IMO the only judges that will be hurt by this are the ones that were really doing things dishonest, but..... if AKC is going to hold judges responsible they should come up with a better method of training. I've been to the seminar and when it comes to measuring it is truly a joke. ten or so teams of men (2 men per team) measured one dog and there was not ANY two teams close in measurement, the instructor never did show the correct way to measure the dog and never gave the actual measurement of the dog. That means that every measurement was correct, not one measurement was discounted by the instructor. rediculous joke, wonder why there are so many discrepancies?
OH and by the way, the "pose" was never mentioned

[tandd]

I hope this does make things better. Like you said Ron, "judges are volunteers," I just think that they should be given more credit for the job they do. I hate to see good people get called cheaters by people who don't know them. Me and you have been diong this a long time. We have measured and seen alot of dogs measured that could go either way. I just want to see it get better and the judges get more credit for the effort that they put forth. Hopefully this will not be an isolated incident.

[Fireman1428]

SO WHAT HAPPENS TO THE 15 INCH CLASS WHEN THEY GET MEASURED? I'M SURE THERE ARE SOME 15 INCHERS OUT THERE THAT HAVE WINS AND PLACES THAT ARE OVER 15 INCHES.. IF THEY ARE WILL THEY LOOSE THEIR WINS AND PLACES AND BE KICKED OUT OF AKC FIELD EVENTS???

[CPC]

I like the idea of following rules. Doesn't matter which format it is in. Rules are set so follow them. The arguement has been made by a lot of the same people complaining in this format that size doesn't matter, but now they are upset they have to run against bigger hounds. Over 13 now has to run with the 15 and 15 plus hounds that are allowed in. Maybe AKC will remeasure the all classes and stop the cheating and a new SPORTSMAN beagler will rise to the sport of beagling and make rules mean something.

The height rule is no different than any other rule not being inforced, if a rules violation occurs over and over than it needs addressed. Good job AKC, continue on, don't stop now. I just hope other formats follow.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Looks like the beagle police were running radar yesterday.Anytime you bend em they have the option to call your card, I actually believe dogs should of been grandfathered in jmho.

[wildcatfan0309]

i think it was agood thing they done by breaking down on the oversized 13 inch class dogs
but i think they need to look at the 15 inch class as well because they are some running that are 16 to 17 easy

[Bev]

thanks bev 4 answering my ? but it looks like if its over after maturity it should b revolked or something for not meeting the stanard.

Who would enforce this? AKC doesn't have the manpower to put dog spies out there to drive up and down alleys and roads to monitor the growth of all the beagle puppies it registers. The best they can do is prohibit oversized dogs from entering their sanctioned competitions. Competition in AKC's eyes (and some other people's) is a measuring tool to establish "breed-worthiness" or those dogs/champions that should be bred for improvement of the breed. If they eliminate the oversized hounds and those that have been spayed/neutered, that's the best they can do from New York City towards meeting that goal. If the sanctioned/licensed trial judges or measuring committees fall short of carrying out their wishes, then they have to intervene with their Reps and retrain.

Regarding the BOF, I'm sure the U.S. Beagle Fox Nationals will draw those kennel's biggest guns...for the edge that we've been talking about on this and other threads, but I guarantee you those boys have 15-inch dogs in their kennels, too. I was just down to Billy Poole's Pen in December for the 2nd annual running of the International Beagle Fox Trial, which requires a height limit of 15" (since the Canadians cannot go over). We cut loose 60 dogs.

Please look at these pics and marvel at the uniformity of the dog sizes, LOL! 15" was the limit, and 15" it was! Look at their shoulders heights. All of those dogs I would wager to say are within 1/2 inch of each other. Granted, the southern boys had to run mostly gyps, but they had no problem coming up with a full class of 15" hounds.

FEMALES 1ST THRU 5TH


FEMALES 6TH THRU 10TH


MALES 1ST THRU 5TH


MALES 6TH, 7TH AND 9TH. (The others cut out early - long drive)


BEST MOUTH & CLASSIEST HOUND


Here were 2 different countries, with 2 different height standards, who set a rule for this trial to keep all things equal at the casting post, and they were able to comply. Would the southern boys love to have brought their big guns for this international trial? Sure...but they didn't. They left them home and played by the rules. And they still won most of the places. This can be done in the rabbit/hare trials, too.

The best-case scenario from all this stuff is that Danny will be able to finish Bandit in the 15" class...where a 14-1/4" dog belongs. I hope that happens because nobody here is bashing the dog. Everyone here who has seen Bandit run agrees he's a really nice rabbit dog...just too large for the class in which he was being campaigned.

[CPC]

Bev wrote

"just too large for the class in which he was being campaigned"

Bev, I know how Bandit feels, I hear this all the time.

[wvduece]

i bet bandit could care less what class he was run in bet he dont know when he looses either unless danny tells him

[TC]

It is broke, thats why they are trying to fix it. I think this is the biggest breath of fresh air in AKC in a long time. I look forward to judging again where I dont have to be looked at like a crook for sending home oversize dogs.

I Agree!!!!
And here is my 2 cents Worth..
As far as the natural Stance of the hounds Cowering down or squatting is NOT the hounds natural Stance.. PERIOD...
The hound Should have his feet well under him and naturally Supporting his Weight......
i have been Showing Dogs in The AKC showring ( Same Standard applies to both) for a few years and you Dont Often see a 13.5 to 14" Dog in the 13 inch Class
At a AKC show you can Ask for the hounds to be measured. If there is one in Question If you decide to do this you pay a fee of $25 if the hound Goes over you get your money back if not Then it goes to the host club BUT the Question Will not be asked again THAT DAY!!!!
i Think this is the best thing the AKC could have Done..
Oh And Danny This was mentioned and Discussed at the last beagle Seminar I attended...
I Do NOT think they Were Singling anybody out. THEY ARE NOT OUT TO GET YOU!!!!
And Yes i have Seen bandit and YES he is Over 13"
I have measured a few hounds out in my Day and Was not asked back to some of those Clubs because they said i was to hard on the hounds and Some of the entrants Complained!!! Oh Well Then bring the Correct Size Dog to the Stand for that Class!!!
I think AKC should do it the Same way UKC does Measure Every Dog before it Runs....
Now that being said Does UKC have over sized hounds running YES but not when I am Measuring....The Stand Will be of the Correct type Approved by AKC/ UKC and it Will be preset at 15"or calibrated accordingly if anybody has a Question on if it is correct then Time will be taken to Show them....as well as the proper Place for the bar to be Set not high on the neck or low on the back but at the Withers the point Where the Shoulder blades Come together....Take the TIME to Research this and a lot of Questions will be answered. EVERY JUDGE MEASURING HOUNDS SHOULD KNOW THIS.....
I Also feel that MORE dogs Should and WILL be Measured at the Casting Stake in ARHA
A hound Will be placed in a NATURAL STANCE with his Feet under him Supporting his Weight......
I DO NOT Run hounds Over 15" its the Rules!!!!! live by it or Go home....

[george pirman]

Very interesting read on measurement at Beagle field trials which has been a problem for a very long time BUT WILL WE SOON JUST HAVE TWO CLASSES, MALES AND FEMALES UNDER 15"? Please read the 2008 BAC Minutes from the AKC web page.

Art Boger commented that Chapter 9, Section 1 describes the 4 classes. He suggested leaving it as is and adding to it giving the club the option to hold a trial with 2 classes either deciding at the trial or advertising prior to the trial.

I believe this will be voted on in 2009 and may just be voted in because the SPO, GDB, and Large Pack people think it is just an OPTION and only Traditional Brace Club will do it. I dis-agree and I think once it gets started many clubs will do it. Why, because it is easier to get 4 judges then 8 judges. It is easier to get one running grounds for each day such as Saturday Male under 15" and then Sunday Females under 15" rather then two running grounds for the males on Saturday. Also it will cut club expenses in half on trophies and judges.

This just might happen and when it starts it will be very difficult to stop! I also believe it may have support from the AKC Field Rep that have to now do the job of measuring official measured 13" dogs.

George Pirman

[sctx]

Mr. Van Sickel, If you take your beagle to another official measuring and he measures in to the 13 inch class, what then? Or can you not do that sine he was measured by the AKC reps? Thanks.

[hurryup]

It wasn't that long ago there was a thread on here questioning the size of a dog caled Mr. Wilson. Don't know the dog or owner just pointing out that Bandit is not the only dog whose size has been questioned lately.

[danny vansickle]

Mr. Van Sickel, If you take your beagle to another official measuring and he measures in to the 13 inch class, what then? Or can you not do that sine he was measured by the AKC reps? Thanks.

no,i cannot get him officialed into the 13,they are issuing me a 15 in card wich is bs,i think they need to stick to the rulebook,for him to have a 15 in card he needs to be measured like every other 15 in dog,under 2 sets of judges,i think they should just strip the 13 in card and leave it up to the owners if we want to still try to run them 13 and take our chances at the stake.i think the biggest unjust here is that head rep,mel stewart had already investigated bandits official measurement a year ago and told me out of his own mouth,and he admitted in front of everyone yesterday that he said this staement riught here.......

"all dogs measure different under different judges on different days,all that matters is whjat bandit measured on the two days he was officialed"

what he did yesterday totally contridicted everything he did one year ago,he also guaranteed me i would never have to worry that if anyone brought up bandits official card that he would tell them that the matter was settled,well,then why did he do what he did yesterday?

fact is,we can argue till we are blue in the face weather bandit is over 13,but what about the other dogs that will still run in two weeks at central ill. and from now on till they finish?yes,i agree bandits size is "questionable",that is why i took him before four different judges and two different akc reps,the judges and akc reps measured him the right way,with their hands off him in his natural stance,he was measured 13 and 12 3/4,when he measured 12 3/4 the rep read the stand,what more do you need.........

if bandit is left to stand in his natural stance,he is 13 inches,i have measured him time and time again,yeah,if i stack him up like they did yesterday,he will go over,but does the rulebook say to stack him up?no,it says in the dogs natural stance......

this is a personal invitation,anyone and i mean anyone that ever wants to measure bandit can do it,as long as they take thier hands off him and let him stand under the stand....


you are all basing your oppinion on pics of him on the winners table,well look at what we do when we are up there,we stack them,how many dogs do you see out in the field hunt and stand like they are on a bench show?

very few,i guarantee you bandit does not,and he is to be measured in his natural stance,not the next dogs,his,like the rule book states........

and i love reading all these posts from people that have eother never attenmded a akc trial or the guy that attemnded his forst at jessmoine and is all of a sudden an expert on akc,go to some trials,look at the 15 in males class and the dogs running there then compair them to bandit and the other three that where measured out,there is a huge differenmce,the dogs runnin the 15 in males are bigger boned,longer and a heck of a lot taller.........


is what the akc doin a good thing,yeah,if they do it by the rulebook and keep doin it,what they did yesterday was breaking the rules,dont stack the dogs,every dog that measured out was stacked to the max,i guarantee you ten people could meas=ure the same dogs in natural stance and never get the measurements they did.........

i was told a year ago my dog was to run the 13 in class,i spent a ton of cash doin that,now,if i was told he was to run the 15 class and took him to a few trials,saw he could not compopete there look at the money i would have saved,but no,i spent thousands running him,and now what,if he doesnt finish there,it was all for nothing.............