What still constitutes a bloodline

[Tim H]

I'll wait for your answer to enlighten me then, cause to this simple mind it looks pretty complicated.

[NorWester1]

I looked at it again, and I guess there are a couple of questions that could be considered trick or misleading. Lets see what everyone else thinks though before I chime in and throw myself to the wolves

[buffett]

I looked at it again, and I guess there are a couple of questions that could be considered trick or misleading. Lets see what everyone else thinks though before I chime in and throw myself to the wolves

I thought it was pretty simple and the exact thing I have always questioned when people talk about a dog several generations back in a pedigree. How do you know if the line didn't split into several distinct types of hounds years back?

[Bev]

Just for giggles, I'd like for NorWester1 (or anyone else) to look at Ozzie's pedigree, even though it's been posted many times before. I don't mean just glance at it. Study it. Study the dogs thru each generation and tell us what you make of it. See if you can count the obvious half-sib crosses. (We won't know about some of those in the last row)

buffett, it may also answer your question about how we would know if the bloodline split out into several distinct types of hounds. My nickle says no, but you decide. Bear in mind, Ozzie is not an island, here. He is representative of his littermates, parents, half-sibs...that family of dogs are all very similar - not only in style and traits, but size, color and conformation.

Why speculate on his pedigree to see if the bloodline still exists, or try to blow it off as insignificant to type of dog he is. For some reason, NorWester1 is clearly choking on that 31% figure, and he won't just spit out the reason why.

It's a PDF, so after it opens, you may have to hit the back button to return to the thread. Depends on your browser:

http://www.northamericanbeagle.com/OzzieClem.pdf

[Bev]

Finally, on the grand scale of things, what does having 35 % Dingus Mcrae in either of our pedigrees really mean?

Well, it's assurance that at least 35% of your bloodline won't be garbage...lol. I can't speak for the 65% brace stuff.

I do need to add one question. Why would either of you use a dog relentlessly in your breeding program that doesn't represent your end goal whatsoever? I believe Ozzie (and other closely bred dogs) are bred to preserve the traits and even enhance them when possible. When they are outcrossed, they are outcrossed to dogs of very similar style and traits that are heavily linebred within their own families. This can pretty much lock in traits. The scenario you offered makes no sense to me.

[Tim H]

I looked at it again, and I guess there are a couple of questions that could be considered trick or misleading. Lets see what everyone else thinks though before I chime in and throw myself to the wolves

I thought it was pretty simple and the exact thing I have always questioned when people talk about a dog several generations back in a pedigree. How do you know if the line didn't split into several distinct types of hounds years back?

buffett, your question is simple to answer. So I'll take that one. By looking at the entire pedigree and not just one dog in it.

But I'm curious, buffett, why didn't you answer the questions since they're so simple?

Bev, from what I see in the previous posts, this is going to get simple for us as soon as a couple of people enlighten us. I've been waiting all afternoon for the simple answer to come so I can laugh at my own inability to see the simple things.

[DoubleEagle]

So here's the questions.

If Riverbottom and I make a nice linebreeding to each others stock......will it be a successful breeding that would satisfy both of us?

Even though neither of us ever saw Dingus hunt or run, are the descendants that either of us possess indicative of the kind of dog Dingus Mcrae was?

Are the decendants that either one of us possess even related to each other at this point? If so, how? If not, why?

How much of an impact on the program did the styles of breeding that we each chose to utilize, have?

Finally, on the grand scale of things, what does having 35 % Dingus Mcrae in either of our pedigrees really mean?

I have to say you left several unknown variables in the scenario which, at best, would make this an exercise in futility. Which females were bred to the hypothetical Dingus McRae to produce these 5 generations? Which dogs were brought in for the outcrossing? How heavy is the hypothetical outcrossing? In essence, unless your point was to give everyone an exercise in futility to argue about, there's only two questions which can be answered. However if your point was to say "breeding style means more than pedigrees" well... I doubt if any knowledgable breeder would argue that.

Q: If Riverbottom and I make a nice linebreeding to each others stock......will it be a successful breeding that would satisfy both of us?
A: No. By breeding, outcrossing and heavily culling for specific traits you have modified the bloodline.

Q: How much of an impact on the program did the styles of breeding that we each chose to utilize, have?
A: Since both of you bred, outcrossed and heavily culled for specific traits of course your style of breeding had an impact.

Now we could let this thread run on and on but in the end your going to have people rehashing the same old argument. The words used may differ, the scenarios given may vary but it all comes down to the same thing. Linebreeding and light inbreeding are used to hopefully promote consistency in a bloodline. Outcrossing is used to add or amplify specific favored traits in each individual breeders program... even by those you may consider linebreeders. It's the breeder we're buying, not the dog.

Mike McCollough

[NorWester1]

buffett, it may also answer your question about how we would know if the bloodline split out into several distinct types of hounds. My nickle says no, but you decide. Bear in mind, Ozzie is not an island, here. He is representative of his littermates, parents, half-sibs...that family of dogs are all very similar - not only in style and traits, but size, color and conformation

How would it answer Buffett's question? It's entirely possible for dogs from the very same family selected for breeding for entirely different traits. That's exactly why I presented the scenario I did. I'm sure Ozzie is representative of the dogs in his immediate ancestry, especially if one breeder is specifically responsible for the breedings directly behind Ozzie, however there could be a dog on the other side of the country with the same % of Dingas in him that has nothing in common with Ozzie as far as style and type. Taking that into account it would make the fact that they are both family bred Dingas dogs......irrelevant and meaningless.

What I'm getting at is that as the bloodline descends generation after generation families within families are created and almost unavoidable, and the further away from the original source one gets the more likely that is the case. It's like claiming we all originate from one biological "Adam" therefore we must all carry the same traits, styles, color etc, etc This just simply isn't the case.

That is why I think pedigrees and quirky little % statistics are terribly over-rated. I'll learn much more from knowing the breeder of Ozzie, knowing what traits and characterisitics he/she is seeking to propagate and seeing the dog or dogs from his immediate family hunt and run.

[NorWester1]

So here's the questions.

If Riverbottom and I make a nice linebreeding to each others stock......will it be a successful breeding that would satisfy both of us?

Even though neither of us ever saw Dingus hunt or run, are the descendants that either of us possess indicative of the kind of dog Dingus Mcrae was?

Are the decendants that either one of us possess even related to each other at this point? If so, how? If not, why?

How much of an impact on the program did the styles of breeding that we each chose to utilize, have?

Finally, on the grand scale of things, what does having 35 % Dingus Mcrae in either of our pedigrees really mean?

I have to say you left several unknown variables in the scenario which, at best, would make this an exercise in futility. Which females were bred to the hypothetical Dingus McRae to produce these 5 generations? Which dogs were brought in for the outcrossing? How heavy is the hypothetical outcrossing? In essence, unless your point was to give everyone an exercise in futility to argue about, there's only two questions which can be answered. However if your point was to say "breeding style means more than pedigrees" well... I doubt if any knowledgable breeder would argue that.

Q: If Riverbottom and I make a nice linebreeding to each others stock......will it be a successful breeding that would satisfy both of us?
A: No. By breeding, outcrossing and heavily culling for specific traits you have modified the bloodline.

Q: How much of an impact on the program did the styles of breeding that we each chose to utilize, have?
A: Since both of you bred, outcrossed and heavily culled for specific traits of course your style of breeding had an impact.

Now we could let this thread run on and on but in the end your going to have people rehashing the same old argument. The words used may differ, the scenarios given may vary but it all comes down to the same thing. Linebreeding and light inbreeding are used to hopefully promote consistency in a bloodline. Outcrossing is used to add or amplify specific favored traits in each individual breeders program... even by those you may consider linebreeders. It's the breeder we're buying, not the dog.

Mike McCollough

However if your point was to say "breeding style means more than pedigrees" well... I doubt if any knowledgable breeder would argue that.

I don't know if I would say breeding style means more per say, unless by writing "style" you mean selection process. I tend to think of the terms "inbreeding", "linebreeding", "outcrossing" as styles and I wouldn't catagorize one as being superior over the other. I think of them as tools. To say which one is better is like asking a carpenter whether a saw is superior to a hammer, it depends on the job right?

I like your post though, especially the very last sentence.

[NorWester1]

Finally, on the grand scale of things, what does having 35 % Dingus Mcrae in either of our pedigrees really mean?

Well, it's assurance that at least 35% of your bloodline won't be garbage...lol. I can't speak for the 65% brace stuff.

I do need to add one question. Why would either of you use a dog relentlessly in your breeding program that doesn't represent your end goal whatsoever? I believe Ozzie (and other closely bred dogs) are bred to preserve the traits and even enhance them when possible. When they are outcrossed, they are outcrossed to dogs of very similar style and traits that are heavily linebred within their own families. This can pretty much lock in traits. The scenario you offered makes no sense to me.

It's just a hypothetical scenario Bev, nothing more.

Just out of curiosity would you or anyone else happen to know if the hardcore brace style dogs share any common ancestors to any of the other popular styles of hare/rabbit hounds?

[Tim H]

Where are the simple answers to the questions?

[NorWester1]

If Riverbottom and I make a nice linebreeding to each others stock......will it be a successful breeding that would satisfy both of us

No, highly unlikely given the fact that we've both been breeding for 5 generations almost completely opposite traits and characteristics.

Even though neither of us ever saw Dingus hunt or run, are the descendants that either of us possess indicative of the kind of dog Dingus Mcrae was?

Again, not likely.

Are the decendants that either one of us possess even related to each other at this point? If so, how? If not, why?

Technically decended from the same starting point but that's the only thing I believe they would have in common by the end of the program. For all intent purposes I wouldn't consider them related anymore as they are too far removed from each other in style.

How much of an impact on the program did the styles of breeding that we each chose to utilize, have?

They would of course have an impact, but not nearly as much as proper selection would impact the process.

Finally, on the grand scale of things, what does having 35 % Dingus Mcrae in either of our pedigrees really mean?

In these two examples, it wouldn't mean much. Of course if one was breeding and preserving the exact style and type Dingas was known for (as Bev claims is the case with Ozzie) it may be very relevant and meaningful. Problem is a pedigree won't necessarily tell you that.

[Bev]

NorWester1, what bloodline do you run, or do you even know?

...and this?

Of course if one was breeding and preserving the exact style and type Dingas was known for (as Bev claims is the case with Ozzie)

Please find where I said that. Taking words of others and refabricating them to mean what you want isn't a form of debate. It's cheating and running off line.

[NorWester1]

I believe Ozzie (and other closely bred dogs) are bred to preserve the traits and even enhance them when possible.

I apologize, I read this statement of yours and took it as implied that you meant Ozzie was perserving the style and type of Dingus. My mistake.

NorWester1, what bloodline do you run, or do you even know?

Do I even know? Now is that supposed be a sort of "dig"? I'm getting a feeling that this discussion is upsetting you in some fashion? Why?

I have some Northern Pride bred dogs out of MN, one from Riverbottom also out of MN, as well as a few hounds with some of the more popular large pack bloodlines in them and a few down from Gay Demon Buzz.

[Bev]

Okay, I guess we're splitting hair here, but when someone enhances a line whenever possible, it tells me that "exactly like" doesn't play into the equation. I don't even know where "exactly" ever came into this entire thread, but I digress.

No, you're not upsetting me. I didn't mean to put you on the defensive about the lineage of your hounds. For all I know, you got burned really bad on a dog deal where someone sold you a pedigree, and you've vowed never to put faith in ingredients ever again, and don't keep pedigreed dogs. That's kinda the way you come off to me. Probably not a shred of truth in it, I'm just sayin'.

Let's flip the script a bit, now that we've hashed Ozzie and other tightly-bred dogs to death.

I have some Northern Pride bred dogs out of MN, one from Riverbottom also out of MN, as well as a few hounds with some of the more popular large pack bloodlines in them and a few down from Gay Demon Buzz.

This seems really vague -- like maybe a little of this and a little of that. I don't know Riverbottom's bloodline. I do know of Gay Demon Buzz and most of the Northern LP hounds. Would you be able to tell me which of the dogs you listed are responsible for the traits your dogs have, and would you be able to predict with a decent amount of confidence what kind of offspring your dogs will throw? Would you say there would be a fair amount of consistency?