Dogs that can lock on a cottontail

[KesslerBeagles]

What trial format would you guys run him in?

I would say Mid-West {AKC} or Little pack {ARHA}. But he has the line control to run Progressive Pack {ARHA} but you would be pushing it because of his speed.

[yellowdog]

Its hard as hell too let moochie leave , i have thought about it several times.I can not keep all of em and moochie made the cut.She is a first class bitch and will back down from nothing .
She has been a enjoyment for me to own run and hunt.Dont worry greg she will be taken care of and checked on often. One thing she does not lack is heart, I ran her recently till they all wanted to drop, junie jumped just one more for the road and little moochie was on the lead she looked up at me and whined, her ass was dragging but she ran another hour and loved it.
She is a keeper elliott and a gundog deluxe.

i remember cutting moochie out of a plastic pipe in my starting pen when she ran a rabbit to hole in that pipe she wouldnt and couldnt get out i litteraly had to cut her out..back then she was no bigger than a turd just a baby ..but i knew then she was gonna be a gritty lil bitch ..glad she turned out...

[Triple_S]

Extremely well put Dr.chris,
Jim lane told me the same thing .

[KesslerBeagles]

Extremely well put Dr.chris,
Jim lane told me the same thing .

I agree, and yes he told me something of those same lines. But I would like to find out what others think. There are many field trialers that don't hunt that much and there are many gun hunters that don't field trial that much. I would like to know what those out there that does both "hard core" think. But I do believe there are some differences that are preferred that you can't deny.

[sgc]

When I started this post, I was more interested in hearing about dogs that would not lose a cottontail while soloing. Dogs that could circle it round & round for as long as it didn't hole & I wanted to sit there. Speed was not an issue as long as it wasn't too slow; (like below a 5 or 6). I, also, think its important that the dog not be over competitive. JMO, but I'm really tired of over competitive hounds.

[WELLS WOODS]

I agree sgc, an overcompetitive hound causes nothing but problems and will destroy a good rabbit run. To the point about field trial judges looking for a little extra mouth for a hound to get noticed, I will have to totally disagree when it comes to the AKC Mid-West anyway. We want a dog to remain silent until it is moving a hot or true line. It is good for hounds to work independently , but the smart ones will check a hound that is getting "happy " withit's tail action. They just need to remain silent until they get there and determine for themselves if it is the true line. Extra mouth will get you noticed all right! Everyone will notice you leading your dog back to the truck.

[ryan durham]

For me I don't think there is any difference in a gun dog or a trail dog. for one if your gun dog does everything that he is supposed to do you can trial him and do good also. I gun hunt my male all the time plus I've had success in nkc little pack, akc SPO, and in southern large pack. If you have a dog that can jump and lock down on a rabbit and run it you can have success in all trials. But on the other hand I have seen some dogs finish that im not real sure that if their handler wouldnt jump the rabbit and tally-ho them on it that they would ever even run a rabbit!!!

[Dr. Chris]

To the point about field trial judges looking for a little extra mouth for a hound to get noticed, I will have to totally disagree when it comes to the AKC Mid-West anyway. We want a dog to remain silent until it is moving a hot or true line. It is good for hounds to work independently , but the smart ones will check a hound that is getting "happy " withit's tail action. They just need to remain silent until they get there and determine for themselves if it is the true line. Extra mouth will get you noticed all right! Everyone will notice you leading your dog back to the truck.

I understand what you’re saying and for the most part I agree with you. But your talking about what the "rule book" definition of what should be done. I am talking about how it goes down. When I said "a little extra mouth" I was not meaning to the extreme to where it is a fault, {not too much, just enough to get a judges attention and give them an edge}. You have those dogs that hit the line but check, re-check and than sometimes recheck themselves again before they claim it and take off with forward progress. Then you have those dogs that are smart enough to recognize when a dog is "happy" and grabs the line and goes. But the point is, that dog that focused on the rabbit and did the worked to find it rarely gets the credit because of the dog that focused on the other dogs, claimed it and is gone with it. The judge rewards which dog? The thing is, that first dog if by himself gun hunting will still lock on and after he "checks" to make sure of himself, he will eventually claim it and go with it. The dog that took it from him, by himself gun hunting who is he going to lean on? Though he may get the attention and points in a trial, most gun hunters will choose the first dog that can lock on a rabbit and do his own thing to gun hunt with and be more focused on a rabbit, opposed to the dog that hunts "good" but is dependent on the other dogs. How many times have you been to a trial "or gun hunting" and you see 1 or 2 work horses in the pack actually doing it all but because of lack of mouth or the fact that they may check and re-check themselves, they don't get the credit. To an extent, in coon, fox and beagle trials the squeaky wheel gets the grease. It’s always been that way and it will always be that way. This is not by the rule book, but it is the way it goes down. And there are those dogs that can do it all, but there are many “Field Champions” that cannot lock on a rabbit on it’s own and do what we are talking about a dog doing here.

[bun-e-chaser]

Brum's Little Betsy. When she hooked on a rabbit, it had to hole to get away from her. She could solo with no breakdowns. She was a once in a lifetime dog. She was FC Morgan's General John bred on top and bottom.

[WELLS WOODS]

Ryan, what hounds have finished in the Mid-West that the handler had to jump the rabbit for him? I can't think of any.

Dr. Chris, what good hunting dog has the check and can't claim it before another dog has time to come over and take it from him? I don't know where you trial, but any extra mouth at all does not give a dog any type of an advantage with the judges in the AKC Mid-West trials; when they open, they better be able tomove the line or they don't look impressive at all.

[ryan durham]

I wasnt putting mid-west down I like the mid-west and I guess I will run it to the day I quit running dogs, but Greg you know as well as I do there are some dogs out there that should have never finshed. I have watched a bunch that deserved it and a few that should have never made the winner's pack.

[J.C. Blair]

FC Hanks Sugarcamp Driver could really lock on and not let off. I watched him run several times and he was consistent. FC Brents Primetime was a dog that could lock on, I watched him destroy dogs, i think it was at south ky, the year he finished. Buzzsaw I saw many times as a young dog and in his older years, run middle of the pack and turn the rabbit behind the pack and take checks right out of the race.

[Dr. Chris]

Dr. Chris, what good hunting dog has the check and can't claim it before another dog has time to come over and take it from him? I don't know where you trial, but any extra mouth at all does not give a dog any type of an advantage with the judges in the AKC Mid-West trials; when they open, they better be able tomove the line or they don't look impressive at all.

To say that because a dog does not open “quickly” is not considered a “good gundog” is not correct. I have seen many “tight mouthed” dogs that were incredible gundogs. And most gun hunters like that in a gundog because when that dog does opens, you can turn your safety off on your gun because you know the rabbit is on its way. Do they make the best field trial dogs? No, but I have seen dogs that just stroll thru the woods {not all, but some} “half heartedly” and when the other dogs do all the work or a handler/judge gets the rabbit up then they decide to jump in and take over. And many can take over because they are tremendous running dogs. But that by no means makes them gundogs. If all a person cared about was trialing than his dog could get by with just being a great running dog and actually lack in some of the areas that it takes to be a great gundog and be successful and become a Field Champion. But that same dog wouldn’t be fun to gun hunt with. I sat at a table across from a “very well known and respected breeder” in a clubhouse at a trial years ago, and the subject of “hunt” came up. His dogs lacked hunt. He knew it, we knew it, and everybody knew it. But they were virtually unbeatable in a field trial. He told us that day, “My dogs are not great hunters, but once the rabbit is up the trial is over”. And he was right. Nobody could hardly beat those dogs. And a “countless” amount of people bred to his studs and bought his pups. Why? Because they had what it took to dominate in field trials. But that “FC status” did not make them good gundogs. And by the way, this was not a Mid-West trial. But his dogs are and were used in the Mid-West, UKC and the ARHA, and very successful. If all I was going to ever do was field trial I would love one of his dogs, it’s all about what you want your hounds for. I am not disrespected or putting down the Mid-West or any other trial formats or field trailers, there are many great dogs that are trialed and I have many great friends that trial. I am just being realistic of the way it is and always has been. The question to me was, “So why would it be great for trials, but not for gun hunting? Aren't trials supposed to be a proving ground for the best gundog?" And I feel the answer to that is no, because many times {not all times} that is simply not the case. Field trials are to see who has the best field trial dog. Rabbits in the pouch and meat on the table will tell you the best gundog.

[sgc]

I own and run midwest dogs. They've all basically been able to solo a rabbit (find it, jump it, run it); however, I have to say, in my case, only a very few could lock on & not lose a cottontail after a long period of time.

[WELLS WOODS]

Dr. Chris, Yes you are right about hunt; all judges should be looking for dogs that hunt and should eliminate any dogs that do not hunt, before a rabbit is even jumped. A dog could get lucky and get in a cast where there is a quick jump and his lack of hunt go unnoticed, but in my opinion a dog too sorry to hunt, most of the time doesn't have the desire too work a check independently and stay busy until the rabbit is found, but I have seen exceptions to this also. A dog running in the Mid-West will never win and place enough to become a FC , if they won't hunt, but I do agree that, although it has improved dramatically over the past few years, judges should still be eliminating dogs that refuse to hunt; most field trialers in the Mid-West Assoc. are hunters and would be embarrassed to bring a hound to a public arena like a field trial that would not hunt.
Back to the extra mouth subject, we'll just have to agree to disagree that extra mouth without moving the line will give a hound an advantage in a field trial.