Breeding question

[BLUFFROCK KENNELS]

What do you all think about inbreeding? I am talking half brother and sister breeding. I have bred father to daughter before, but never siblings. I like to see dogs linebred to keep strong traits, but I also know that the bad traits show brighter to. My theory has always been breed close and cull heavy, but I have never done this kind of cross before. Any Theories on this ?

[S.R.Patch]

A old houndsman told me this is the way you start your own line. You find two families of hounds that complement each other, breed the best of these two families together, then sort through the pups that have the quality your after and breed the siblings together. To me, breeding back to the sire or dam is closer than breeding the sibling together as they have the mix of both parents. Breeding back to the sire or dam is doubling up on one parent all in one shot, you completely cut out one side of the pups pedigree and double-up on the other...

[Beagled1]

I have also done close breedings before - mother to son - and got some awesome results! So I am not at all opposed to inbreeding, and it's needed to achieve consistancy. But, will give you a few things to consider. IMHO, the only form of inbreeding I personally wouldn't touch is a full sibling cross, because they are *almost* genetic duplicates. The genes will have no where to go, and while you'll lock in some great attributes, you may be opening a Pandora's Box that outweighs all the positive. There are also some bloodlines that I wouldn't even inbreed at all, only outcross to. Other lines are safer to inbreed as they started out with as few faults as possible - I'm talking both in regards to field ability and health.

You'll need a 5 generation pedigree on both sides. Check for heavy amounts of inbreeding, and if it appears that both sire & dam of these dogs have been closely bred, it might not be a good idea. Again, think of the genetic brick wall analogy. The genes will hit a dead end, good or bad, there are only so many possibilities and any & all recessives will sufrace.

There are ways to determine the inbreeding coefficient of the litter. Automatically, a full sibling breeding and parent to offspring cross has an inbreeding coefficient of 25%. That number raises if there was any inbreeding on the sire & dam's side. The close breedings I had good luck with were where there had been an outcross to start off with - so the genes had more leg room, so to speak.

I would definitely consider doing a half sibling breeding, because again, there is more genetic diversity to start out with. If yo do decide to go with a full sibling breeding it would have to be out of a line that had almost no faults and were consistantly producing the same. It's also important that after such a close breeding, you outcross to keep in diversity. You're going to loose some traits in the outcross, so from my point of view only, I'd rather do a less intense inbreeding and work within the same bloodline while still preventing the pedigrees from getting too close. That way, I'd loose less in the long run since there would be less of a need to bring in new blood.

http://www.dobermanns.info/info/PEDIGREE%20.htm

http://www.messybeast.com/inbreed.htm

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html

http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/demyst.html

[yellowdog]

we recently made a half mate to half mate cross..also made a father daughter cross..i will know the out come when they are old enough to run there is no physical faults to these pups at all also i have no intentions of selling any until i see what i got..they may not be worth a hoot or i may have just locked in what i have been wanting too for a long time..time will tell...

[S.R.Patch]

I have also done close breedings before - mother to son - and got some awesome results! So I am not at all opposed to inbreeding, and it's needed to achieve consistancy. But, will give you a few things to consider. IMHO, the only form of inbreeding I personally wouldn't touch is a full sibling cross, because they are *almost* genetic duplicates. The genes will have no where to go, and while you'll lock in some great attributes, you may be opening a Pandora's Box that outweighs all the positive. There are also some bloodlines that I wouldn't even inbreed at all, only outcross to. Other lines are safer to inbreed as they started out with as few faults as possible - I'm talking both in regards to field ability and health.

You'll need a 5 generation pedigree on both sides. Check for heavy amounts of inbreeding, and if it appears that both sire & dam of these dogs have been closely bred, it might not be a good idea. Again, think of the genetic brick wall analogy. The genes will hit a dead end, good or bad, there are only so many possibilities and any & all recessives will sufrace.

There are ways to determine the inbreeding coefficient of the litter. Automatically, a full sibling breeding and parent to offspring cross has an inbreeding coefficient of 25%. That number raises if there was any inbreeding on the sire & dam's side. The close breedings I had good luck with were where there had been an outcross to start off with - so the genes had more leg room, so to speak.

I would definitely consider doing a half sibling breeding, because again, there is more genetic diversity to start out with. If yo do decide to go with a full sibling breeding it would have to be out of a line that had almost no faults and were consistantly producing the same. It's also important that after such a close breeding, you outcross to keep in diversity. You're going to loose some traits in the outcross, so from my point of view only, I'd rather do a less intense inbreeding and work within the same bloodline while still preventing the pedigrees from getting too close. That way, I'd loose less in the long run since there would be less of a need to bring in new blood.

http://www.dobermanns.info/info/PEDIGREE%20.htm

http://www.messybeast.com/inbreed.htm

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html

http://www.netpets.com/dogs/healthspa/demyst.html

" I personally wouldn't touch is a full sibling cross, because they are *almost* genetic duplicates." So, breeding siblings is almost like cloning? boy I wish that were true!
How many genes and combination's are possible on each chromosome given by each parent? I'm betting we've got a ways to go before we "hit the wall"...

[Chuck Terry]

I agree with Patch! Full brothers and sisters can be VERY different in both phenotype and genotype due to the large number of genes and possible combinations! I have year old litter (three females and one male) out of two beagles that are not directly related but are from lines that very similar in speed, style, and looks. They do have some common accestors (Weir Creek) several generations back. I guess I got some hybrid vigor and the parents are similar enough that the litter was pretty uniform as best I can tell. In fact, it is hard to tell which parent they took after in regard to most traits. My plan is to continue my attempt at establishing a strain from this foundation. I am still trying to decide which way to go - brother/sister or back to one of the parents. The parents are just now hitting their stride at 3 years old and, of course, the pups are just getting going good. For now, I plan to wait and see which male and female out of these 6 beagles turn out best. I will probably pick based primarily on HUNT (this was my goal in making the original cross) provide, of course, that all other traits are satisfactory. I just hope I will come up with something before I get to old to enjoy the results!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beagled1]

" I personally wouldn't touch is a full sibling cross, because they are *almost* genetic duplicates." So, breeding siblings is almost like cloning? boy I wish that were true!
How many genes and combination's are possible on each chromosome given by each parent? I'm betting we've got a ways to go before we "hit the wall"...

Patch ... full siblings have the closest genetic makeup to each other. My point exactly is that if you raise the inbreeding coefficient enough there will be very little diversity within the chromosones of each parent. Especially if the brother & sister to be mated are out of a litter with a high inbreeding coefficient as well. It is the single most intense form of inbreeding.

[S.R.Patch]

Breeding Coefficients work off percentages names appear in a pedigree, not geneo or pheno types.
My example of starting your own line was from two different unrelated families that had been line bred, but their pheno type was very similar. The plan of breeding the best siblings together was to set the geneotype from the best to be hopefully reproduced down the line in the offspring. This is the hope, increase geneotype and reduce diversity within the litter so that those produced are more consistent in the type hound we're after.
Say for example, I take a line bred Branko hound and cross on my patch, now I see on the pedigree there are no common hounds within the 7 generation pedigree on either, so I say this is mostly an outcross but the two I've selected hunt and run really well together and their virtues complement each other and they have no common faults. I make the cross and all pups turn out to make decent hunting hounds but one dog is exceptional. The cross is made again, only this time, I get lucky and a really good bitch relults. I bred these two brother/sister together and there start to form the bond or the "mold is cast" for the future of what my line is to be. There are now 128 individuals involved in the outcross breeding to get these pups we've bred together, so the genetic diversity doubled, tho your inbred coefficient % went up.

There's a good writing on breeding called "peas and pups", very good reading...

[RiverBottom]

I strongly agree with you Patch

Selection is more important than how the dogs are related. When outcrossing you normaly get lots of variation within the litter. If you bred two littermates that didn't share any of the same traits the results would likely be similar to a total outcross. On the other hand, if you had a large number of dogs to work with and did not inbreed or linebreed but instead selected for the same traits over many generations you would end up with very consistant results. This is exactly what some of the formal foxhound packs have done. Inbreeding is a shortcut to get there quicker, but unless you select for the same traits you won't get anywhere.

[S.R.Patch]

Hi Tom, good to hear from you...
Tell us about your breeding.
I got some sun-tea out on the porch and need to check the pups. Put them in the chicken lot last night, walked a couple circles round the pen with them and the little bitch got on some scent, trailed it off, heard her open once, then they all came back. Man, the briers are so thick, I bet their licking their paws today. Gota go see how many tics they got, bet I picked a dozen off me last night.
I'll go get my tea and the sugar bowl...

[RiverBottom]

Hope just had a nice big healthy litter last night/this morning

Hope x Traveler
Hope is by John x Slimmer
John is by Shy x Rose
Rose is by Cider x Sandy

All of the above have chased many a hare to the gun up here. With any luck some of these will carry on the tradition.

[BLUFFROCK KENNELS]

Say for example, I take a line bred Branko hound and cross on my patch, now I see on the pedigree there are no common hounds within the 7 generation pedigree on either, so I say this is mostly an outcross but the two I've selected hunt and run really well together and their virtues complement each other and they have no common faults. I make the cross and all pups turn out to make decent hunting hounds but one dog is exceptional. The cross is made again, only this time, I get lucky and a really good bitch relults. I bred these two brother/sister together and there start to form the bond or the "mold is cast" for the future of what my line is to be. There are now 128 individuals involved in the outcross breeding to get these pups we've bred together, so the genetic diversity doubled, tho your inbred coefficient % went up.

That is what I am after. Both dogs are very dominating, fast, solid rabbit dogs. They are out of the same stud, but different dams. The dams side has some of the same stuff about 3 generations back.

[S.R.Patch]

How many you got there, 8 or 9?
I don't like the little trough along the outer edge of the crate, easy for pup to get squashed in.
Pups scatter when their to warm, bunch to mama's milk bar when their happy.
Best of luck with your new brood...

[RiverBottom]

Patch, she had 9. All still doing well. You are right about that trough, be better if it sloped towards the middle instead of away from it. We have raised lots of pups this way and don't loose many. Can't remember the last time one got laid on. Biggest problem with this is the open front. Have had pups get out on the cold cement. Now I put up a board across it as soon as they start moving around.

Biggest factor we found in raising pups is the mother. If we have a litter and the mama doesn't save most or all of them without much help, her bloodlines don't get carried on. Good mothers are born that way.

Getting back to the subject, have any of you had anything but small litters when inbreeding? The few times I have tried it we never had more than 5 pups and they don't seem to be as strong as most pups. Half brother, half sister crosses work fine but anything closer and the pups don't seem to do as well. In my case though, I never bred that close until I knew for sure what I had which means the female was older, that may by part of the problem.

Inbreeding depression? If so what happens if you inbreed the next generation? Leon Whitney in his book "How to Breed Dogs" wrote that he tried inbreeding several generations but could not get past the 4th or 5th cross.

[yellowdog]

Patch, she had 9. All still doing well. You are right about that trough, be better if it sloped towards the middle instead of away from it. We have raised lots of pups this way and don't loose many. Can't remember the last time one got laid on. Biggest problem with this is the open front. Have had pups get out on the cold cement. Now I put up a board across it as soon as they start moving around.

Biggest factor we found in raising pups is the mother. If we have a litter and the mama doesn't save most or all of them without much help, her bloodlines don't get carried on. Good mothers are born that way.

Getting back to the subject, have any of you had anything but small litters when inbreeding? The few times I have tried it we never had more than 5 pups and they don't seem to be as strong as most pups. Half brother, half sister crosses work fine but anything closer and the pups don't seem to do as well. In my case though, I never bred that close until I knew for sure what I had which means the female was older, that may by part of the problem.

Inbreeding depression? If so what happens if you inbreed the next generation? Leon Whitney in his book "How to Breed Dogs" wrote that he tried inbreeding several generations but could not get past the 4th or 5th cross.

the father daughter cross we made she had 9 pups and raising them all...the half mate cross she had 10 and is raising all of them..so yes we have had good size litters..cant wait to see the traits wer have locked in here..i will keep all posted as they age..tracy