Who's at fault with the Measuring?

[BuschBound]

Most of this is requarding to Large Pack but does include some pertaining to SPO. I have heard numerous times- "That dog should be running in the 15" Class!" Well, at some clubs these same dogs get in and at some they get measured out... So now, they pick places to go if they know they can get measured in. Whose fault is it? Is it the hosting clubs selection of the measuring committees fault? Or the person or handler of the dog? I've heard the line- "Everyone knows what they have" ...and I agree. Now, is it fair for that 13 1/2" hound to go into the 15" class and have to run against 15 1/2" hounds.
Some say it's like this in all classes. I'd have to disagree. There are far more 13 and over dogs running in these classes than the 15" classes. There are a few that are over 15" but the numbers are far more greater in the 13" classes. I know measuring has always been an issue all over and it will probally never get fixed. But I'd like to know first off who everyone thinks is primarily responsible for the problem with measuring?
In SPO a dog has the right to get premeasured. In large pack a hound can always stay until the next day and run. unless it measures over in the 15" class- This doesn't happen very often. My opinion is a owner of a dog should take it upon themselves to either have that dog Official Measured or make sure if you know what class that dog is suppose to run in run in that class. I've heard there are clubs out there that don't want to loose money so they let everything in. I think this is wrong and there are people taking advantage of this. Clubs picking measuring committees should make sure they have the same guys measuring for all classes so the consistancy is there and make sure all measurers know how to measure. What is everyones outake on this?

[Boomerx]

To me, the fault is all with the measurers. If a man takes a hound to the stand and the measurer carefully measures it, looks at the stand and it reads 13 1/4" and then the measurer says "13", he's OK, then this measurer is a liar, a coward and a cheat. I can't make it much plainer than that. I don't really fault the owner or handler for taking him to the stand, as we all know they can measure differently on different days, but if the measurer outright lies about what he measured at, then there is no limit to the ways this dishonest person would cheat concerning hounds. Just my opinion! Terry McBride

[wvduece]

why dont they all agree n put it in the RULES to give some leway like 1/4 in either way or some kind of measure n stop all this crying n bitching put it in the RULES n leave it like that jb

[BuschBound]

why dont they all agree n put it in the RULES to give some leway like 1/4 in either way or some kind of measure n stop all this crying n bitching put it in the RULES n leave it like that jb

They have it in the book now... 13" and 15"... would you let me build you a house with a 1/4" leway?

I don't really fault the owner or handler for taking him to the stand, as we all know they can measure differently on different days, but if the measurer outright lies about what he measured at, then there is no limit to the ways this dishonest person would cheat concerning hounds.

Well put Terry!

[bullboy]

theres some official measured dogs that are over to thats not the cure it would reduce but not eliminate

[crittergitter]

if you let them go over a 1/4 inch they will still take the extra 1/2 inch then you will have 13 3/4 , it will never end , rules are only as good as the ones that enforce them

[modock kennels]

simple as this, everyones seen it and some have done it, guys taking there 14 inch dogs to clubs where there buds are at and doin the measurin and then gettin them officially measured at 13.....happens all the time, i dont know what they could do, myself i know its a rule and should be gone by but when i get beat by a dog at a trial i dont say "man if he was only 1/4 smaller i think i coulda gotem"....but you know rules are rules

[greenbay]

I believe the owner and the guys doing the measuring are both guilty. (*with emphasis on the owners) If a hound is 13 1/4, no one is at fault if it measures in or out. I believe there is a 1/2 inch difference when all situations are considered. However, we are NOT talking about a 1/4 of an inch........... It is 3/4 to 2 inches that we should be concerned about. In the past I had a hound that won the derby and measured 14 1/4". I sold the hound because I only run 13s. The guy that bought this hound, beat it on the back so it would not stand to be measured. The hound crouched so low, they measured it in the 13" class. This particular hound beat me out for the Hound of the Year by only a couple of points. The only reason I sold this hound was because it was over 14".

The new owner knew exactly how big it was, and to me that is cheating. The measurers should never measure a dog that will not stand in a natural, alert position. Crouching down is NOT a natural, alert position. Look at these hounds when they are on the podium having their picture taken, this is a natural, alert position. In this position, they are one to one and a half inches taller than a true 13 inch hound. (pictures can be seen on northernmihare.com) In the 13" class there a some hounds that measure 11". Why should they have to run against a hound that is over 14 inches??? I never want to duck competition, just give me an equal playing field.

Excuses like the price of gas, clubs needing the money, etc., absolutley provide NO justification for breaking the rules. Where is our sport heading to if accept that breaking the rules is OK?

If we cheat on measuring, then we will cheat on all other phases of a trial as well.

[mybeagles]

The fault is completely with the judges. They are the ones trained and selected to ensure that the rules are enforced. I have judged 15-20 trials and can only remember 2 that dogs were not measured out. One trial 5 out of 16 dogs measured out and they were all 3/4" too tall or more. Its not a popular thing to do and maybe thats why my phone quit ringing to judge but I am ok with that. When judges do there job measuring, and send oversize dogs home, owners will stop bringing the big ones. As long as there are judges that are afraid to hurt someones feelings we will have oversize dogs running.

There is an issue with owners teaching their dogs not to stand. I have the dogs walked around, if they wont stand I hold them as close to natural position as possible and take a measurement. I have been accused of intentionally measuring dogs out, but that would never be my intention. In my kennel a dog that cowers around people is a pretty big fault, but my 4 kids ensure I dont have to deal with that very often.

No, we dont need a 1/4" exception in the rules. There are two classes of dogs, 13" and under, and 15" and under.

I beleive all official measurements should be done by AKC field reps and it should be a one time measurement. If the reps scheduled 6 appearances a year, you could come with no prior arrangements, fill out the forms, have your dog measured, and be done with it. This would reduce intimidation and buddy measuring and cut way down on 16" hounds being officially measured.

[TC]

Good post mybeagles.
Right on the money

[marty kelly]

if a judge is dishonest about measuring do you think you are going to get a fair shake in the field?

[Newt]

Marty, my thought exactly.
It's so bad that when I took my thirteen inch bitch to a stud to be bred the owner of the stud said, "oh she is really a thirteen inch bitch. I responded well the mother of the stud was thirteen inches. He grinned and said something like, yeah that was a trial thirteen inches.

It's no wonder that we hear so much complaining about buddy judging. If they won't be honest on an objective measurement in front of the crowd why do we expect them to be objective in the field.

[THALL]

My only problem with oversized dogs is where does it stop? If Bob gets his 13 1/4 in the 13" class, why can't Joe run his 13 1/2. Before you know it in the 13" class, the smallest is over 13". The rule is there for a reason.

[main event`s beagles]

akc makes money on it clubs try their best to break even it`s a money thing you can look at a dog and be almost within 1/2 inch to a 1/4 by guessing but the marks on the ruler change

[Newt]

IMO, if the rules were enforced if wouldn't affect the money for long. There are beaglers who breed for over sized dogs. They want them on the edge. If they knew they couldn't compete with those dogs they would plan their matings with a safety factor.