Show dog VS field dog conformation

[Windkist]

May I ask who is the breeder of this bitch and what is her pedigree?

thanks,

leah

Leah ... I didn't purchase her directly from the breeder but his name is Myer Bishop. I believe he is more well known in show Bassets. Her sire/dam are CH Bayou Oaks Smudge x Camma Farms Chanel ...

Pedigree is: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/be ... 99788.html

Very nice pedigree ;-) TC! you have some lovely dogs and I'm proud of you for doing what your doing with them. Frankly, I'm interested in the field trial aspect of beagles but, there isn't a club or any organization here for it and at this point in my life I don't have time. I've chosen what I like to do and I certainly don't feel that I've made the wrong choice. I'm more than happy to have beaglers who hunt use my breeding stock and I love to hear what they are doing. My heart is definately in showing so, thats where I'll stay.

Leah

[SilverZuk]

We have a Cocker who loves to chase rabbits, he is far from a rabbit hound tho...

The key question is -- Is she better than your beagles?

Those tested and required to last the longest will have the better conformation by necessity.

That is exactly what I am saying. The best proven field dogs in the world don't have show conformation, however they almost all share some of the same "faults". It is not coincidence. These shared conformation faults are actually conducive to performance, though they don't match the breed standard (or at least the current interpretation).
As a whole I believe we need to look at what works, what doesn't, and define the breed standard to what it was intended to do. That is to produce the ideal rabbit hound, or mini-foxhound as the one standard stated.

BTW, I was joking about you standing the dog in the grass to hide the long toes.

[SilverZuk]

Ahhh the old adage "Form follows function" If it were only 100% true. A beagle with a hearty nose and ample desire whose form is crooked and bent yet can keep going for hours is a beagle with drive and heart. Never mind that its tired and ready to drop.

I disagree to an extent.
Heart is heart, that is bred into them as a trait that cannot be seen. It has to be tested.
Ever seen a gifted athlete that just didn't like playing ball?
While a little short fat kid with ton of heart, very little natural ability, stuck right in there and give it his all.'
Which kid would you put on the field in the 4th quarter in a game that was an all out fight?

I've always said the hardest thing to find in a beagle is hunt, any of them will run a rabbit.
I'm talking about searching and searching all day never let up.
Heart is more common, but not every dog has it.
Lack of heart, or desire, is the first reason a dog is culled.
If a dog quits the race - it is gone.
I've said many times,
"They should run a rabbit right through the gates of hell...
and bring right back to the gun."

The open marked tri-color gip I posted a picture of is cull (that is why she is spayed).
She has plenty of heart though her poor conformation hurts her.
On days where it is heads up running all day, she won't quit until she is not physically able to run.
She has the heart, but not the physical ability to do it all day long (short fat kid).

I have seen dogs that were real lookers, and could turn it on when they wanted to.
But, they didn't do it every time out. I call them "hit and miss dogs", somedays they show up and other days there are just there.

[Larry G]

Right on boys, only thing is we don't want to breed away from dogs that at least look like beagles (do we?) to get the job done. I see some pretty funny looking stuff at field trials running real well. MOF I OWN some pretty funny looking stuff (only a mother could love) that will make you shake your head and smile and go "wow" in the field. Also my best dog right now is a beautiful tri that I would put on the bench anywhere. So, do you want icing on your cake or not? I do.

I will add that if you are selling dogs, good looks are very important to prospective buyers. Most buyers want pride of ownership that an ugly dog just cannot provide.

Now, let's settle one question.... can the full show bred dogs earn their keep in the field? The answer is "NO".... with very few possible exceptions mostly based on owner bias. Beaglebrit got pumped over the possibility, wonder what happened? We who had been down the same road just smiled in amusement. Lack of nose, desire, voice, hunt (although I did have a male that would jump his share) and trailing instinct cannot be offset by "good conformation" and a pleasing personality. The people who would have you believe different have their little axe in hand looking for a grindstone.

[Black & Tan Teckels]

It's two fold. Hunters have been selecting dogs to HUNT and in some cases have chosen breeding stock ONLY by how they are in the field. Show people have chosen dogs who they feel are conformationally correct and ignored hunting ability. Both parties are guilty!

Oh so true, and again my point exactly! While I have yet to comment on hunting lines much, some likewise will appear far out of step with the standard. Everyone participating in this discussion please remember that the key word in this (as well as my previous posts) is "some," as there are more and less desirable animals conformation wise not just between various bloodlines but usually even within single litters. This is, and always will be the case with all pure-bred dogs. In addition, please also remember that it is definitely not my intention to slam anyone’s dogs (don’t believe I’ve done so either) or either group (show/hunt) for that matter.

That now being said, I’d just like to add that I personally would dearly love to see more beagles (from both camps) "crossing the lines" and earning dual championships. That, I believe, is what the original drafters of the standard intended. Can it be done? I think so, with work.

I think what show dogs lack most is voice and other than that I believe and have heard from some field people that they run just fine. Do they run good enough to win competitions? NO! but, they have the instinct to chase a rabbit.

From what I’ve seen of Uno on TV, etc., lack of voice certainly isn’t always a problem in show lines! In fact, "silent runners" crop up relatively frequently in hunting line beagles as well as numerous other scent hound breeds. Again, vocal abilities can likewise vary widely, both among bloodlines and even within specific litters. This is particularly evident in my other breed, dachshunds (yes they’re hunting dogs too), where direct siblings will either run a line mute while another will open freely (these latter are termed "Spurlaut" by German breeders).

Of possible interest, those seeking to preserve Spurlaut Dachshunds (a loud tongue is specifically cited in the standard by the way) credit beaglers as an inspiration as can be seen in the following; "I learned from getting a beagle, running beagles, and associating with beaglers, of their no tolerance policy for dogs that don’t open." (Jeanneney, Sept., 2005 Dachshund Club of America Newsletter XXIX(3): 50-51).

As for "Do they run good enough to win competitions? NO!" - perhaps as much lack of practice rather than lack of athletic ability?

Before leaving (for now, anyway) and for the record, the dogs pointed out by Leah, TC, Cindy (please don’t yell, LOL), SilverZuk, Beagled1, etc., etc., are excellent beagles indeed. Virtually all, however, fit within my definition of "moderation." Also, UKC registered dogs are obviously well represented, yet another factor of relevance to this discussion?

Well almost "Nuff said"

Dachshunds, "little weasel rootin, fireball earthdogs" (thanks Bev, and I told you I’d steal it!) - John

[Moore Beagles]

Honeypot [quote][ There ARE American breeders who have Beagles that can run the fur off a bunny and win on the show bench too. If I cared to hunt they are where I would buy my breeding stock from because I like a goodlooking animal as well as a versatile working one. To name my top favorites in order:
Sundown
Strongbow
Echo Run/quote]

Cindy I agree with you, I rate Sundown at the top of my list too, and many breeders have benefited from the fine breeding from Strongbow and Echo Run. These breeders have been moving forward with the dual purpose in mind for several generations, and when you start with the quality of thier prior breeding, you are not trying to reinvent the wheel. The thing that everyone measures is how many Bench titles or Field titles each have won, whos to say that everyone of us would not be totally satified with most of thier Dual bred beagles. If it looks like a show dog and preforms in the field and runs a rabbit to the gun, I'm already in heaven regardless of how many trophies they win:!: There are such a small number of breeders with the dual purpose in mind, that the odds are against them, because there are so many that they are competing against, Breeders with the one role in mind. I think what alot of theses breeders have done is simply incredible. Its like a Colt winning the Ky Derby, and Preakness, and then losing to a well rested colt in the Belmont that has not ran for two months. Yeah they didn't win the Triple Crown, but they have one heck of a horse.
Well Sundown, Strongbow, Echo Run, WV Bill, and TC, I look at all of these breeders with a world of respect for bettering the breed, and I think theses guys are alot closer to Dual purpose champions than most think.
Zuk I think that the only fault of most of the AKC show conformation dogs that might restrict them as a field dog is the shorter body. That doesn't mean that there isn't a happy medium for compactness in back length. i think if a Beagle were to be a dual champion in todays formats they would probably compete at a heavy show weight, then lose a few pounds for the endurance in the field. Believe me these show bred dogs with proper conditioning can go all day. The reason they gate the way they do, is the proper function of thier structure. I saw a earlier post that said something about a show dog not gating proper in the field, my show bred dog has several gates just like any animal with four legs, and when he is chasing he turns on the top gear afterburner gallop. Zuk if I had a good side view picture of Uno I would post it like you originally asked for just to here what everyone else has to say about it too.
I think Uno and his Daddy Parker are the finest representatives of what a beagle should look like, and my hope is that someone soon will be blessed with the ultimate dual line that will surpass MOST everyones expectations.

[Beaglebrit]

Now, let's settle one question.... can the full show bred dogs earn their keep in the field? The answer is "NO".... with very few possible exceptions mostly based on owner bias. Beaglebrit got pumped over the possibility, wonder what happened? We who had been down the same road just smiled in amusement. Lack of nose, desire, voice, hunt (although I did have a male that would jump his share) and trailing instinct cannot be offset by "good conformation" and a pleasing personality. The people who would have you believe different have their little axe in hand looking for a grindstone.

Larry, that little show bred girl of mine Cakes, started, will pack, great at a sight chase, knows what a bunny is,Is a pretty good jump dog, loves to crawl thru heavy cover,will Tally Ho and down..will load up on a 4 wheeler and loves to go....
Now for the downside....Mostly I cannot stand her front movement in the field, she hammers that front so at any speed other than a show ring trot that it is painful to watch!...She does not have much of a nose...and very little voice...no bottom or heart and only a little desire and little or no natural talent.We train all the time and could possibly improve her skill set but it is that front movement that just turns me off!!!! She is not pleasing to watch in the field...but she is sure eye candy for the kennel.
She is a Show Pony and is great at that!
I am hoping that my 15" FC bred female will start picking up some show points...One of her brothers is at the monent UGBF high point derby hound, and another brother is DSBGF 2 nd place high point derby hound. I haven't derby trialed her because I don't want to put any faults on her...I just want to let her mature and bring her along slow
Betsy

[Larry G]

Betsy, I have run into the same thing. Not trying to discourage anyone from breeding the show blood in. I have a fine show female I plan to breed to a Haymaker male that looks good and has the qualities to offset the things you mentioned. I went in a direction that appealed to me (under 13 inches only) and now I have ditched that because it is too restrictive. I culled some fine stock because they were over (and they won't sell them back to me!) and some that was under because of incurable kennel barking. I now believe that if I keep the pups here and work with them I can stop the kennel barking, in some cases anyway. That is because I have managed to do that lately, but unfortunately you ain't gonna pet or bribe them out of it, the only thing that works is they find out early on that I ain't putting up with yapping all day and night. Still naturally quiet is SO MUCH BETTER!

There's always going to be a few who say their show dogs could go win the trials because they will bark at squirrels, have superior conformation, etc. etc. well I say the way to impress would be to enter those worthies and let that speak for you. There are professional handlers that would start, train and trial your dogs for you.

My own part shows have been both trialed and shown, so far I have never come home empty handed. No I would not take a full show hound, and I am talking about one with a solid show champion pedigree like this
http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/pedigree ... S4RYAWUR0M
(not some hound that somebody drug along to a show or two) and enter it in a field trial.

I was lucky enough to buy a bitch with all the field ability I could want (and I want a lot) AND what I consider close to ideal field conformation. Lord have mercy so far she is also quiet in the kennel and has turned down deer. I'm struggling with what to breed her to same as SilverZuk is with his bitch. For sure none of my males are good enough. I will probably give hunt, brains, nose and desire a little more weight than looks. Pretty that can't do is not hard to find.

[Moore Beagles]

Larry G wrote
I was lucky enough to buy a bitch with all the field ability I could want (and I want a lot) AND what I consider close to ideal field conformation.

Hey Larry whats the breeding on the well built female with the field breeding that you wanted I would love to see a picture of her

[Larry G]

Don't know, except sired by FC Wardlaw's Little Red (never heard of him) and Purvis Creek Ann (her neither). I need to send for a ped on her. She was so puny when I bought her I wondered if she would make it. Full of worms and half starved. She's living a better life now. I don't have a pic and she is a very people submissive bitch (drops down) that would be hard to pose.

You will see some good looking hounds from field breeding once in a while, and I also have some that could win an ugly contest.... but they were cute as pups when I bought them! I find that most field trialers and hunters don't care too much about looks if a dog can win or put game in the bag. SilverZuk asked just how bad can they be and still be called a beagle. Well Zuk you should have seen some of the Pearson Creeks (AKC) and I think that would answer your question.

[Beaglebrit]

There's always going to be a few who say their show dogs could go win the trials because they will bark at squirrels, have superior conformation, etc. etc. well I say the way to impress would be to enter those worthies and let that speak for you. There are professional handlers that would start, train and trial your dogs for you.

And buy a Fishing Camp at the lake from your handling fees!!!! Been there done that in Britts....Top Juvenille dog in the North East...Never an adult placement!!!!
Betsy
(Older and much more frugal now)

[Beagled1]

Now for the downside....Mostly I cannot stand her front movement in the field, she hammers that front so at any speed other than a show ring trot that it is painful to watch!...She does not have much of a nose...and very little voice...no bottom or heart and only a little desire and little or no natural talent.We train all the time and could possibly improve her skill set but it is that front movement that just turns me off!!!! She is not pleasing to watch in the field...but she is sure eye candy for the kennel.

Funny thing, the show bred bitch I own who does have what would be average hunt - she has that awful front movement as well It's terrible. Very overly clumsy, not agile at all, and takes twice the effort to cover as much ground as my field breds. I'm not exactly sure why ... could be her back is probably a bit too short for efficient movement? Although especially for an under 13" she is very well balanced and has a good front. But that front movement is just so odd. Now she does have good hunt, like I said not great line control at all, but the desire is definitely there.

[Beaglebrit]

Funny thing, the show bred bitch I own who does have what would be average hunt - she has that awful front movement as well It's terrible. Very overly clumsy, not agile at all, and takes twice the effort to cover as much ground as my field breds. I'm not exactly sure why ... could be her back is probably a bit too short for efficient movement? Although especially for an under 13" she is very well balanced and has a good front. But that front movement is just so odd

I think with my girl, who has a good front for a 13, I think it has to do with a combination between shoulder layback and lenght of upper arm...but I cannot put my finger on it..
(Her picture at 6 months old is on the thread about angles)
Too short of a back usually leads to poor rear movement...moving like they got a load in their pants!.....
It puzzles me ..in the ring judges remarked on her wonderful movement...She is agile and can negotiate brush..but at a run you can almost hear that front pound
Betsy

[Beagled1]

I think with my girl, who has a good front for a 13, I think it has to do with a combination between shoulder layback and lenght of upper arm...but I cannot put my finger on it..
(Her picture at 6 months old is on the thread about angles)
Too short of a back usually leads to poor rear movement...moving like they got a load in their pants!.....
It puzzles me ..in the ring judges remarked on her wonderful movement...She is agile and can negotiate brush..but at a run you can almost hear that front pound
Betsy

I checked out her pic - quite a beautiful bitch, btw - and she doesn't appear to be overdone at all. Isn't that strange about the front movement? I certainly no expert but there is nothing that jumps out at you from that pic that pinpoints why she might move so clumsily in the front ... I think you've got a good theory about shoulder layback. I have some field breds with crappy layback of shoulder but yet they float, tho. And my 15" foxhound like bitch whose pic I posted earlier in this thread ... she lacks chest very badly & has an overly long back. I believe due to that short, narrow chest, is why her front gait appears poor - yet she is an efficient mover?!
Anyway, same thing with my CH. "Bailey". Her movement at a trot (i.e. show ring pace) is a thing to behold. Very clean mover. But then when she is in the field, that gawky, clumsy front movement is a real hindrance to her. I'm actually happy with her hunt ... she's really not field trial material but if she was field bred I'd say her hunt was average. I was surprised to see she had the instinct she does, and think if she moved better, she may even prove to have better hunt. The effort that goes into what should be natural movement has got to be tiresome.