COLDTRAILIN

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:07 pm

Breed to the 10% that don't mouth off in the check. Judges should stop rewarding mouthy dogs because people breed to these winners and spread the trait. I know of a line that is just what you describe even though they can produce the game. I would mention the name but don't want to get lynched. LOL

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:18 pm

Swing,
This may make some even mader yet!

The hounds you have seen in the trials you stated you have judged may in deed been mouthy. But I don't consider my cold trailer to have extra mouth in the first place. And she would fall in your 10% that is not mouthy in the check area. As a matter of fact when she runs by herself she gears down and walks when she needs to and very seldom has a break down in the chase to begin with. Unlike some of the race horses that are out there today she is a solid medium speed hound and left to her own design will run a rabbit or hare forever with out losing it. She is a real rabbit nut. Ask Rich Smoker about the hound I'm talking about. She took a second place a Penn. State hunt a couple years back and my buddies Ninja bitch took fifth in the same hunt.
NYH

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:17 am

My preference is a dog that doesn't bark until the rabbit is up. When a hound opens , he's telling his packmates to come join the chase; I've got a rabbit and that tells me to get my gun ready. I'm not going to sit around and wait till a dog tracks old scent to a hole or something , while my clean mouthed dogs are ready to go hit the thickets. I also don't want my young hounds around dogs like this.

B.Trull · Post by **B.Trull** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:24 am

Trent . I agree with that. Seems to me the ones I owned were like that also. I dont trial cant comment on that. I'll put up with some minor faults on use of mouth in a hound that produces and circles bunnies consistently in any weather. It always seems the more medium, speed hounds I have owned , even from different bloodlines , have the over use of mouth problem than those of of faster speeds. I could never find a medium speed hound that didnt overuse his/her mouth and were good jump and track dogs.

Brad

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:36 am

B. Trull: you are in for quite and experiance when you see it the rabbit is so stiff you can hold it out by it's back legs and it will stick straight out stiff as a board.

New York Hillbilly: The hound does not presumambly know pack ediquette but he does know the age of the scent he smells. Not opening on a find on a check is something completely different then cold trailing. There are lots of things I don't agree with at field trials and search is one of them, that could be a whole other topic. They don't allow the hounds to search at trials.

You have seen hare track in the snow where they have spent the night feeding and so you know that they wander all over criss crossing their track as they go. Finally when they set it is close by usually under some small cover or on top of some small bump or rise. Does your hound who cold trails do so in a wnadering criss crossing fashion or is it a straight line. If a straight line is it a true cold trail? Hare will sometimes sit tight as you know but they will also get out of the way upon your approach; if the hounds hit the line before the hare found his form and sat for a while and open they are cold trailing. If the hounds hit the line where the hare has moved from his form upon your approach they are not cold trailing. Which is your big nosed hound doing? If the hound is cold trailing then it must be frustraiting to you to see the hound going all over a small area this way and that, spending all of that time to unravel the line while the hare sits patiently close by.

You are right there is no need to wait for a hot nosed speed demon to run wildly through the woods till they run into a hare. That's why we have hounds who search in a sensible manner. If given their head and have the gift for it, hounds are much better at finding their game then their handlers are.

Swing: what would happen if hounds were picked up at the trials for that obvious fault?

New York Hillbilly: Why would your hound not being mouthy make anyone mad?

swing · Post by **swing** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:41 am

Heres how it went.
Me an my buddy were judging,dogs were hammering a rabbit, I got an angle on the dogs and seen the rabbit cross a pretty big opening. So I hollered to my buddy I had the rabbit.
When the dogs came to the opening they had a loose,2 different dogs went the wrong way mouthing. I hollered at my buddy and told him to make a little slash mark on the green collar and the yellow collar.
Finally the blue collar dog made it back to the check point working it with its mouth shut came across the opening and opened up when it was sure it had the rabbit, yellow collar comes mouthing to the dog just because of the waggingtail. I scored the blue collar with the check and at the next time out the guy with the yellow collar dog said his was barking the whole time on the line behind the blue collar dog,Needless to say this guy ended up with a scratched hound and his hour was over before the rest was.
This dog was barking at a wagging tail not a rabbit.
I think at this time of the hunt the yellow collar dog had already recieved 2 minus for not producing in 3 minutes.
First hunt this guy was ever at and boy did he leave a good impression on the gallery he was with, never heard such a mouth around women in my life.
Hopefully he gets turned in and his trialing days are over,and hopefully he will figure his dog out, but i doubt it.
They were both minused out the day before for not producing a rabbit in 3 minutes.
O well thot the picture of the hunt might help
Trent

swing · Post by **swing** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:52 am

Swing: what would happen if hounds were picked up at the trials for that obvious fault?

Would tickle me to death to get to pick them up.

And would probably be easier for the rest of the dogs in the pack to run without them,I doubt there would have been a check in that opening if it wouldnt have been for a couple of mouthing idiots.
I believe extra mouth to me is worst than a deer race.
Trent

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:00 am

I don't think there's any question that in general, Cottontail bloodlines will exhibit more mouth than hare bloodlines. I don't know why this is. A couple of things I'd like to point out is that just because a hound will work a cold track and tongue while doing so does not make him a babbling idiot. I can't stand extra mouth, however if I'm judging a trial and conditions are such that a cold trailing hound is getting more done than his packmates due to very tough conditions, I will consider this hound for the win. On the other hand, the hound that refuses to tongue til the game is jumped is certainly not tight mouthed and to say that these dogs will be tight on jumped game tells me that those who think so have not seen very many hounds. While Lew Madden may have written the rule book accepted by the two largest and oldest organizations in North America, it was not the work of one man. It was under consultation from many of the best and most successful houndsmen known. All agreed that cold trailing is a fault. It may well be a fault we can live with but it's a fault just the same. I have a terrific little bitch as I've said before. She will occasionally cold trail and while I certainly would prefer she not do this it's something I can accept. In my opinion the very best jump dogs don't spend much time working tracks. When they encounter a cold trail, they circle the area in attempt to wind the rabbit and close in to jump him. This is similar to the way a bird dog works. Another thing I've noticed is that almost every hound I've ever seen who cold trails will also rerun a line after game is killed or when an area gets tracked up.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:27 am

Joe,
My bitch that I consider a cold trailer will not open if she is sniffing around in an area where hare have been milling about. She does so once she begins making forward progress on the line. Once she is locked on to the line she slowly walks it barking only every so often. As she gets closer and closer to the hare her excitement and barking gets more intense and frequent and her foot speed increases. The other hounds begin to chime in as the trail gets hotter, sometimes the trail never does get hot if the hare has been set up long or the weather is bad, until the hare is jumped. The fact that she can work and old track to the hare makes me call her cold nosed but she is not mouthy in my book. As far as people getting mader I was just kidding around for a minute what I was getting at was my comment that she NEVER loses it to begin with. I thought that might get a few going! But seriously if she is running solo she never seems to have a check and runs and runs until the hare is shot, rabbit holed, or she is intercepted on the line so we can leave. She will not be called of a rabbit. OOOOpppps another fault!!

To each his own I guess! There is no more point in me beating this subject to death because I know where everyone stands and they know where I stand on the subject. We just see things differently and that I guess is OK. For the record in the many trials I have attended I found the opposite to be true when it came to mouthy dogs. I found the most mouthy dogs in AKC Large Pack trials and the tightest mothed hounds in ARHA PP. This has been my observation over the years and it seems the higher the intensity or competativeness the worse it is. I have seen hounds open as they are pulled from the box and never shut up till picked up. ANNOYING to be sure!! And further more I run (when I have the time) in ARHA Little Pack for the most part and have seen it alot there too. The more medium speed hounds seem less rushed and more methodical in how they operate, not to mention less likely to over run the line or create checks. My hounds actually fall in between ARHA Little Pack and ARHA PP style but I know lots of guys in LP so I tend to go where I am comfortable. As I said to each his own. The hounds I have suit me fine and judging from the guys that show up at my doorstep wanting to go shoot some rabbits all season they suit a few others too. The sun is shining right now, temps in the 20's and my big dillema is should I go hunt deer for the last day of muzzle loader season (out back) or go hit the new spot I found creeping with hare. I'll have a cup of coffee and figure it out. Have a good day!
GONE HUNTING,
NYH

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:00 am

NYH, I should probably clarify that by saying that cottontail bloodlines have more mouth, I mean more mouth on line- not necessarily bad mouth. I'm surprised to hear you say you see more faulty mouth in Large Pack trials. Certainly when the big male class is cast in a trial you'll hear a lot of mouth initially til they settle down. That's from excitement. I don't often get out to NY- mostly stay within New England. By and large though, I've found a majority of the hare bloodlines to be slightly tight. Not bad, but if you could adjust the dial you'd turn it up a notch. I will say though that in the last two years, I've had to pick up a number of hounds for bad mouth- much more often than usual but in every case we also had a lack of game and these same hounds may have fared better had they gotten a run in the first hour. I remember one hound last year who hardly stopped tonguing for the first hour in a trial. He merely ran through the woods tonguing and it was nearly impossible to get his number. Eventually we caught him but by then the pack had a hare going and the marshals picked him up. Of course the handler saw him tonguing on the line when the marshals grabbed him and insisted that he'd been the only one running the hare all morning- he was pretty hot. Of course if a hound never stops tonguing, sometimes he WILL be telling the truth. There's no hard and fast line that can be drawn when it comes to proper use of mouth and we all have a different level of tolerance for this. I guess it should relate to how it affects the rest of the pack. I can't say where to draw the line, but as someone once said, "I can't define obscene, but I know it when I see it."

blackdirt beagles · Post by **blackdirt beagles** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:12 am

sure wish i had me one of those super power, hot nose, "correct" dogs that jump a hot rabbit in 8 seconds everytime out, with correct mouth of course

until then im pretty sure im gonna keep what i got and thank god i have them

.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:49 am

Steve,
I have marshalled, watched and participated in both male and female big and small and have found the big males to be the biggest offenders. I guess I should clarify something however. These hounds were not so much mouthy on a cold trail as they were just plain mouthy. One hound opens and the whole gand is off barking like a bunch of mindless idiots. Competative....and then some! And while you are right that the first hour or two is the worst, until they "settle down" many of those that I have seen do this right to the end. I have seen some exceptional hounds in this format but they have been few and far between for my liking. Who would want to hunt wih a guy that brought hounds that ran around nuts like this on a hunt for the first two hours till they "settled down"? Not me! I would deal with a hound that can work a cold track to a rabbit or hare much more easily than a hound that at the drop of a hat or first bark from another hound blows open into continuous non stop barking as it "me too's" or worse yet steals the front and then can't run it. I learn something new every daybut remember and learn lots from what I have seen over the past 31 years with my beagles. Can't do something that long without learning something even if it was on accident!

NYH.............by the way the deer hunting wins out today. I'm leaving now.
Peace

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:24 pm

Really can't argue with anything you just said. Lots of guys keep hounds that would never circle a hare under any but ideal conditions. You said the key word- "overcompetitive". That seems to be all the rage today. Good luck deer hunting and with your hounds too.

kjohns · Post by **kjohns** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:25 pm

Well for once on this topic, I'm going to agree with Joe. The dogs in the trials that are mouthy in the check need to be minused. Like I've said before, I've gone to quite a few little pack trials and never once seen a dog get minused for pulling the pack out of the check area. It happens over and over but the judges just don't minus them. It leads to the wrong dog coming back quite a bit. And I feel this alone makes the lp trials pretty much worthless as far as finding the best hound. They are fun though.

danny · Post by **danny** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:33 pm

laal, I guess that would be the difference in our opinions (and I do understand they are just opinions, i don't get offended) If a dog is working a cold track, you don't want to hear it as you don't consider that running a rabbit. I do want to hear it as I do consider that running a rabbit. As has been said plenty on here if the dog did't consistently produce game, that would be a fault.

Here's my question though, does it matter if it's a hot track or a cold one? If the dog couldn't bring the rabbit back to you on a consistant basis, what's the difference? Is one more of a fault then another? I can't see how.

I can see how people can have different preferances. I can't understand why people would call one or the other a fault?

dk

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