Show dog VS field dog conformation

[Black & Tan Teckels]

Before leaving this post completely I'd like to add the following (quoted verbatim from the AKC's offically accepted Beagle breed stand) under the heading General Appearance:

"A miniature Foxhound, solid and big for his inches, with the wear-and-tear look of the hound that can last in the chase and follow his quarry to the death."

From my point of view, I have yet to see any Foxhound that could be descibed as square in any way, shape or form, nor am I likely to ever do so.

Glad to see someone bringing attention to this particular reference in the Standard. This is the look I prefer, and am trying to breed for. This is my foundation bitch who is not going to win any shows anytime soon, but typy, correct? Yeah, I think so.




And this is, I think, the main difference between the show/field "types". From what I've seen, personally, it seems though the show lines are beginning to lengthen out and are, to a small extent at least IMHO, are abandoning that cobby, square, overdone look. Ch. Scentini Million Dollar Baby, to me is a great example of this - tell me at least conformation wise, he does not embody the miniature foxhound aspect of the standard & that his conformation wouldn't allow him endurance, stamina, foot. http://www.dynomitebeagles.com/

Nice girl you have there Beagled1!

I likewise think I see the beginning of some moderation in style in AKC show stock, at least in some lines, and personally hope that it continues. If we accept that the standard was originally written as a guide to producing dogs with a conformation best suited for the work destined to be performed, we then essentially must also accepted that it describes the essence of what that breed is, how it should perform, look, etc., etc. In other words, is a beagle that can’t trail it’s own scent let alone a rabbit really a Beagle or just something that kind of looks like one?

[Lefgren-Lane]

Some very good points Black & Tan Teckels. I would disagree with your thoughts that there has been some moderation in the show lines. Appears to me that they are even more "clodie" than they were a few years back. Not a one of them from any showring in the world (pack hound shows excepted) come even close to having conformation needed to be entered into a traditional English pack. Even showring English Foxhds look like "draft" animals compared to thier pack relatives. Show ring beagles are just smaller draft animals.

Here is a link with a good pic of a Hound show winning Eng Foxhound. A min of that is what the standard calls for not some throwback to the "stamp" or "shorthorn" era of hound fads.
http://www.albrightonwoodlandhunt.co.uk/
another Foxhound
http://www.hunting-directory.co.uk/gall ... l05/46.jpg
UK pack beagle
http://www.hunting-directory.co.uk/gall ... l05/53.jpg

The differences between these and "show" types is incredible.

[SilverZuk]

UK pack beagle
http://www.hunting-directory.co.uk/gall ... l05/53.jpg

The differences between these and "show" types is incredible.

The one shown in the picture seems "over muscled" to me along with short ears, long neck, and small head from what I prefer.

I like a heavy built hound I really liked the build of the blue tick beagle I posted in the early pages of this thread).
He had a blocky hound head, and a solid build. His head wasn't ideal breed conformation, but I prefer his look over the breed standard because to me it is more a typical hound head.
He was slightly longer than he was tall (typical running hound).
I prefer a dog that is well proportioned and a solid build.
Muscle tone should be evident on any running hound, but not bulky.

[SilverZuk]

This is my foundation bitch who is not going to win any shows anytime soon, but typy, correct? Yeah, I think so.

Your dog looks like what I expect in a hunting beagle.
She has a nice head, nice frame, and good running gear.
The toes are slightly long compared to show standard (most running dogs are).
Judging the wear on her toe nails and feet she looks like her gait is good and even.
Dogs with short toes typically the nails are worn too short and typically aren't fast.
She is a little "long legged", and probably a little faster than what I prefer to run.
Overall she is built quite nicely.
I also love a clean marked tri-color saddle blanket.

[Lefgren-Lane]

Silver Zuk I like a heavy built hound I really liked the build of the blue tick beagle I posted in the early pages of this thread).
He had a blocky hound head, and a solid build. His head wasn't ideal breed conformation, but I prefer his look over the breed standard because to me it is more a typical hound head.
He was slightly longer than he was tall (typical running hound).
I prefer a dog that is well proportioned and a solid build.
Muscle tone should be evident on any running hound, but not bulky.

They do not run Clydesdales in the KY Derby. I might be able to find you one if you want to enter. Sounds like your type.
Need some bricks for your pockets and 5 buckle overshoes so you can run cross country faster? Bulk and mass are all enemies of endurance, agility, and speed.
The Beagle was created and bred to be a"kill" hound that was meant "to last in the chase and pursue its quarry to the death". It was not created to follow its quarry around to the gun, but to account for the quarry by running it down and killing it. (A European hare that can run for miles and has a top speed of 40 plus miles per hour.) Heavy built, blockie, short legged, overboned hounds can not full fill that function. The heavy hound may function OK for a gun hunter but they are not correct to the Beagle Standard nor will they full fill the purpose and function the breed was created to accomplish.

[oakhill]

Amen to Lefgren-Lane !!!!!!

[SilverZuk]

They do not run Clydesdales in the KY Derby. I might be able to find you one if you want to enter. Sounds like your type.
Need some bricks for your pockets and 5 buckle overshoes so you can run cross country faster? Bulk and mass are all enemies of endurance, agility, and speed.

Did you see the picture of the one I posted?


Here is a poor picture from the front


I am not talking about short legged, big chested dogs. I just don't prefer a slight build, still a beagle and according to many "unknowing people", a nice specimen.

That dog could run all day long. He had more endurance than any other I have ever owned.
The sire to him was Logan Elm Blue Rocky, which wasn't as heavy framed but a proven endurance hound in AKC and ARHA trials. He took most of his physical traits from the dam's side. He was a mirror image of his grandfather, Odells Turnback Joe. Joe has proven his endurance over and over to me and others. The guy who trialed Joe when he was younger took him to Michigan to hare hunt. They would run a pack until mid day, and then switch. They left Joe on the ground all day, every day of the week and he was still pulling the front of the pack. On the way back, they stopped at the World Hunt and came close to placing him in the top ten.

So endurance is something I consider, I have never seen "show built" dogs perform or endure the way those type field dogs have. That is really why I started this thread.

I wanted some one to take a picture like mine and point to all the conformation faults.
Then post a picture of a show dog to show the "correct" conformation.
My arguement is the breed standard is not conducive to the best performance.
My evidence is that I have never seen a show built hound that could hold a candle to the hounds I mentioned above.
Maybe they are out there, just not any where I have been.
It's a big ole world out there, and I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of beagles, but I can see what works.

[SilverZuk]

I would consider a "clydesdale" to built like a basset.

Here is a short legged big chested beagle. Not exactly a clydesdale, but not built to run.


She has poor feet with a high toe, and round bottoms.
She cannot do it "all day long" when the running is big.
She is a medium speed dog, and the rest of the dogs I run are relatively fast.

Due to her poor conformation, she doesn't have the effortless gait or endurance that I require.

I had her spayed, but she is a good rabbit dog. She is a great pup trainer and earns her place even though she doesn't match the pack to well.

I take her along to keep her in shape, but I would like to find her a good home. When I find someone that will hunt her and run her, I'll probably let them have her.

[Lefgren-Lane]

Silver Zuk.
Neither one of those hounds are very good examples of the breed. I would not breed them, own them or basically have anything to do with either one of them. They are certainly NOT min Fxhds. Here is a nice pack bitch that won the top spot at the All Ireland Beagle show. Hopefully you can see the difference between the pics I've posted and the ones you have.
http://www.irishbeagling.org/Show_07/DSCF0047.JPG

Another excellent bitch. 14.5 inches

diamond.jpg (18.74 KiB) Viewed 5952 times

A nice male. ARHA Little Pack Grand Rabbit and Grand Bench Champion. He was 2nd in an open class of 395 at World Hunt Wish pics were better. He could use a bit more arch over his loin.

1lp981.jpg (16.41 KiB) Viewed 5955 times

1lp982.jpg (17.06 KiB) Viewed 5951 times

There are some excellent hounds out there. You have got to go find them. Belive me they are not in the showrings, either AKC, CanKC or FCI(shows in the rest of the world)
The best hounds are in the packs and out running. Go find them. Educate yourself so you can recognize it when you see it. One of the best places to start according to Ben Hardaway (probably the most well known and respected breeder of hounds in North America) is look at the feet. If it has bad feet skip the hound and go on to the next one. If you have two with equally good feet only then bother to look at the rest of the hound.
You did notice the excellent feet in the pics and links I posted, didn't you? Take a real good look at the feet on the link to the Newcastle and District tan/wh Beagle Hound Show winner. That is a terrific hound.

[Black & Tan Teckels]

Some very good points Black & Tan Teckels. I would disagree with your thoughts that there has been some moderation in the show lines. Appears to me that they are even more "clodie" than they were a few years back. Not a one of them from any showring in the world (pack hound shows excepted) come even close to having conformation needed to be entered into a traditional English pack. Even showring English Foxhds look like "draft" animals compared to thier pack relatives. Show ring beagles are just smaller draft animals.

You're correct, many show ring beagles do appear "clodier" then ever. What I meant, however, is that there does seem to be at least the start of a trend toward more length and reach in some recent exhibits. Whether or not that trend continues awaits to be seen, guess that will depend largely on what the judges ultimately "deem" as winners. IMHO I believe it's needed, however, since too much divergence in form essentially completely splits the breed in two. That, I believe, is something everyone should aim to prevent.

The links you provided to jpegs of pack hounds was a nice touch and, yes, I still have yet to see a square foxhound show or pack! Those discussing ear length should remember, however, that ears in English pack hounds (foxhounds anyway) may or may not be "rounded." I don’t know if this procedure is applicable to English pack beagles, just something to consider.

The "draft / thoroughbred" discussion of this thread has likewise proved entertaining with valid points made by those of either viewpoint. Some variation in general build, however, is normal in any animal (or plant for that matter), with some individuals being bulky, others lean, and still others somewhere in between. This is not a bad thing either, as it allows for some latitude in form conducive to different styles of hunting, etc., etc. It is the extremes in either direction continually being enhanced and pushed forward by selective breeding that I see as the problem.

And SilverZuk your statement "the breed standard is not conducive to the best performance" is incorrect (don’t kill me now LOL), as the breed standard was originally written specifically to aid in the production of specimens best suited for their function. It is the far too liberal interpretation of that standard by some judges and breeders that has created a rift, not the standard itself.

[Larry G]

One thing I don't care for in the show beagles of today in the US is the amount of front to rear slope. Then there is the too small club foot, and the too straight pastern. I do sell the show type for pets, and some of my customers are obsessed with the short back and short, squarish muzzle. Seems they want something like this, second photo.

http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998%20 ... obtail.htm

[Larry G]

One thing I don't care for in the show beagles of today in the US is the amount of front to rear slope. Then there is the too small club foot, and the too straight pastern. I do sell the show type for pets, and some of my customers are obsessed with the short back and short, squarish muzzle. Seems they want something like this, second photo.

http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998%20 ... obtail.htm

One more thing, the best conformation in the world, and I am talking about for performance not for winning shows, is worthless without the desire and ability. The ultimate test of a dog is what it can do, not its physical structure.

[SilverZuk]

One thing I don't care for in the show beagles of today in the US is the amount of front to rear slope. Then there is the too small club foot, and the too straight pastern. I do sell the show type for pets, and some of my customers are obsessed with the short back and short, squarish muzzle. Seems they want something like this, second photo.

http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998%20 ... obtail.htm

After 9 pages this is where I was wanting to get - the differences between show dogs vs. field dogs.

When I look at typical show beagles, I see the same things.
The first thing that I notice are the feet, most appear to have club feet. The second is the over exagurated ears being as wide as they are long.
I never payed much attention to the rear slope, I just figured that was the way they were "stacked".

[SilverZuk]

Silver Zuk.
Neither one of those hounds are very good examples of the breed. I would not breed them, own them or basically have anything to do with either one of them. They are certainly NOT min Fxhds. Here is a nice pack bitch that won the top spot at the All Ireland Beagle show. Hopefully you can see the difference between the pics I've posted and the ones you have.

The first picture is what I am talking about show vs. field. That dog had execptional speed and endurance, and comes from a long line of ARHA and AKC proven dogs that were exceptional performers. I would always look around to see other people smiling or shaking their heads when he turned it on. On a big running rabbit the further out in front of the pack he would get the longer they ran. He ran down and caught his share of rabbits in his short life. His fault was he didn't have the hunt that I like. Overall his speed was a fault, he usually put too much pressure on the rabbit which caused them to hole early. There were often times hunters couldn't shoot because he was too close to the rabbit. So overall he probably would have made an excellent hare hound, but not what I wanted in a cottontail dog. He was killed last March at age 2, so I won't be breeding him.

The second picture I posted to show a bad example of a beagle. She is nice little rabbit dog, has a big nose, keeps the track between her front legs, but she doesn't have endurance that I require. She is spayed and I'll feed her until she dies, unless I find a young boy that really wants a beagle to run a rabbit. She is medium speed, and probably the perfect speed to run cottontails. She stays on the track and keeps them circling, usually when you see the rabbit it is just loping along making for an easy shot. She doesn't pressure them.

I have a nice gip (which if you search you will see some pictures of her). She was best female at the 2007 ARHA World Hunt and made it past the first round at age 16 months. I had no intentions of bringing a dog that young, but I said if she qualified I would take her. I may breed her this spring.

So I pose the question, "Would you rather win the World Hunt Field or the Bench?"

The answer is obviously both, but I have yet to see a beagle with ideal conformation perform with the top field dogs.
WIth that said, there are some that have very good conformation, but not ideal "show conformation".

[SilverZuk]

Another excellent bitch. 14.5 inches

diamond.jpg

Well I can't see the most important part (feet). Why are you standing her in grass to hide her long toes?
Overall, I really like the build of that hound.
The ears appear a touch short. The neck appears a bit long, but may just be the way she is being held.

Now I'll compare her to a "show dog" conformation.
a. not tri-color
b. no brush on the tail
c. ears too small
d. chest too deep
etc.

I am interested in the best field dogs I can find with good conformation. I will accept faults in conformation more so than "running faults".