Kidney Failure

[NCPatch]

Larry, Years ago when Ivomec was first introduced to the market there was a insert in the box dosage indications etc. that stated what I said . It is no longer preasant in the box that is sold now . Panacure/ Fenbendazole has a similar warning do not use 14 days before or during hunting season. Since Ivomec is not indicated for dogs I guess they dropped their caution statment. Protein, I worked as a Vet Tech for a few years while studing genaral animal sciences. We saw a large number of renal failure in dogs and cats most from uremic poisonig after testing BUN and creatinine levels for differant animals all breeds of dogs and cats we did find one common trait. The dogs that had the most problems loved cat food . What I am saying is these dogs were raised with cats and consumed the cats high protein diet as well as there own preservatives BHA BHT etc. are preasant in them as well I know it seems we are getting know where with this problem but the fact is there are so many diffirant possibilitys. Some we can change.

[Nor' Easter]

Most Cattle & pigs are not required to live long anyway, so I would think it would be less of a concern.

[klrconcrete]

I have never lost a dog or had one with any level of kidney failure and I have always fed some amount of commercial dry kibble, I have always shyed away from Purina because at every level their feeds are heavily cereal based and as someone else said- dogs are meat eaters first and foremost! I have always paid more attention to how the ingredients label reads rather than the protein and fat content not only because of cereals and fillers but to see how much animal protein makes up the first line of the ingredients list. If you do this regularly you will find that many "lower" quality feeds actually read much better than- not only Purina but many "higher" quality feeds out there. With that being said I have for the past 6-7 years fed a raw diet consisting of ground beef and or chicken, beef and or chicken liver and some fish at certain times of the year, all these are supplemented with minimal amounts of a high quality kibble which most of the time is an Eagle Pack Holistic Select Lamb and Rice formula. I feel that feeding this way has all but eliminated overexposure to all the problems that can come from man-made kibble ( example- the Diamond and how many other off brand foods fiasco) and drawn my hounds closer to a diet that is natural to them- the reason I still add kibble is to get the vitamins and minerals added to this that straight meat does not hold in high amounts. With that being said, I feel that the epidemic (if thats what you want to call it) of hounds dying with kidney failure could be related to the amount of inbreeding that has gone on within the beagle breed for the last several decades. Take a look in the pedigrees of some of these hounds that have died from this and see if there has been constant inbreeding- if there has (and there probably has) these cases we are starting to hear more and more about maybe the effects of generations of this type of "bettering" the breed and may be just the beginning of something much bigger than a few cases. Kurt Robinson

[Larry G]

NC Patch, thanks. A lot of people think differently. If you will read Don Potts page on worming, he worms with Ivo on the first of every month, then on the 15th he does the 10% fenbendazole for three days running. If he followed the wait 2 weeks advice he would never get to run his dogs! Who knows, maybe he is just lying and they all died from kidney disease! Heheheh I am just kidding but it goes to show that there is a lot of disagreement on the kidney problem.

[warddog]

I am not discounting that the Kidney failures have genetics involved as I'm sure they do. What I suspecion is that certain lines are more susceptable to kidney problems than others. I have been around hounds my entire life and I can never remember ever hearing of beagles having so many kidney problems 30 or 40 years ago let alone so many dying as a result of it. Even back then our family hunted for food and our dogs were taken to the vet quite frequently as numerous members of our extended family hunted and shared with the care and upkeep of a couple pretty good ole dogs. The big thing I remember back then was distemper and worms. Back then getting your own vacinations and wormers wasn't heard of and you had to take that dog to the vet if you wanted it maintain it in good shape. We never had much of that good store bought high protein dog feed back then and I rememebr scraping up the table scraps to feed. One of the things I remember my great uncle for is brewing up his dogs potato peeling stew as he called it. Every time potatos were peled for supper he would cook his hounds up a stew of the peelings and add the other vegetable trimmings along with a small amount of store bought feed. I do this even today especially in the cold winter months. In my years around these hounds I've noticed several changes in them with this being just one of them and the other noticable is the shyness in so many beagles of today.

[NCPatch]

Thousands of people have visited Mr. Potts web site over the years and followed his advice . But I have never been one to fix something that isn't broken fecal sample is the best way to see what type parasite an animal has viewed under a microscope. Yes I know we all don't have one in the feed shed. But what I want every one to Know is these dewormer's that we use are poison that's why you use them to KILL parasites .I do not use them as often as Mr. Potts and if I raised as many pups as some and worked a full time job as a county or municipality employee. had a web site to promote and sell my dogs. well you can see for your self what I am saying It would not leave much time to run dog's I probably shouldn't have said that but people are killing there animals with Ignorance. Heart worm meds are dosed for prevention and are safe.I never deworm during hunting season unless absulutely nessasary . Tape worm after season is usually needed due to eating rabbits or when you see the signs. There are signs for most parisites . But don't take my word for it ask MR. webb site

[NCPatch]

OH I all most forgot what I wanted to say in the first place. The patch line of dogs is one of the oldest known line bred line of beagle out there a lot of close breeding if any that raise line bred patch have had renal failure I have not heard please post and let us know. I don't mean to put anyone down . I got a little out of sorts with that last post my apology's .

[Larry G]

I have said before that I feel Potts is overdoing the worming. It would make sense to switch wormers too not just keep pouring all that fenbendazole into the dogs. I get by with only the monthly heartworm prevention and every 6 months for intestinal worms in adult dogs, pups need something different.

Potts does have some good info on that site and many of the questions that are asked over and over on this board, he gives a pretty good answer to most of them.

Anybody who says we haven't bred kidney failure into Beagles is either in the dark or trying to keep you there. Back when distemper was bad, there was no parvo, and no heartworm, and very little kidney failure. Who knows what is next it could be anything and people will be blaming it on the food, vaccines, whatever. Vaccines in humans are now in the spotlight as a cause of autism. We now know that mercury in tooth fillings is not good. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[coolbrze]

There are certain lines that it is genetic in and no one can deny it. Dying at 5-7 years old seems to be the norm. You'll see a huge loss of weight/muscle in the hind quarters, loss of appetite, excessive water consumption, and awful smelling breath. Lepto can cause this as well. The best thing to do is to take the dog to the vet asap and have blood work taken. If it comes back w/ a lot of Protein in his blood, it's a gonner. If you do decide to put the dog down, have a kidney biopsy done. Kidney failure is not the reason it's dying, it's the affect something is having on his kidneys and a biopsy will tell you what. If you catch it in time or suspect it, DON'T breed the dog, it will cause more problems down the road.

[RiverBottom]

I'm suprised almost no one has mentioned the biggest cause of kidney failure in hounds. Running your dogs in hot weather will damage their kidneys. Do it enough and they will die from it. It often catches up with them about 5 - 8 years old. Don't take my word for it, ask your vet. While you are there, ask him about Ivomec and high protien dog food also. He will probably tell you niether one causes kidney damage.

Here's some examples:

I just got the results back from the autopsy that was done on Winston. It showed no signs of poisons or toxins of any kind from any feed or heart worm prevention. But the vet did use a word called Amyloidosis.. and that's caused from dydration and HEAT. Said he could've already had some kidney damage and running in excessive heat could've caused his kidneys to fail. They were scared better bad..
http://www.arha.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph ... 2#Post6992

I JUST WANT TO LET EVERY ONE KNOW HOW IMPORTANT IS IS FOR OUR RUNNING HOUNDS TO HAVE WATER!!! ALOT OF RUNNING HOUNDS HAVE SO MUCH HEART THAT THEY DONT STOP AND DRINK WHEN THIER BODY NEEDS WATER!! THE KIDNEYS ARE ON THE BOTTOM OF THE TOTEM POLE OF THE ORGANS!!! WHEN THE HOUNDS BODY IS CALLING FOR FLUID THE MORE IMPORTANT ORGANS TAKE THE BODY FLUID FIRST. WHEN A HARD DRIVING HOUND PUSHES ITS BODY FOR HOUR AFTER HOUR RUNNING AND DONT DRINK IT IS KILLING ITS KIDNEYS. I HAVE LOST 2 HOUNDS IN THE PAST DUE TO KIDNEY FAILURE. BOTH OF THESE HOUNDS HAD ALOT OF HEART TO HUNT!! ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO I LOST MY ALDI HOUND. LAST YEAR I LOST MY MAX HOUND ALSO DUE TO KIDNEY FAILURE. AFTER LOOSING MAX I STARTED DOING SOME HOME WORK ON THIS DISEASE.I NEVER USE TO TAKE WATER WITH ME FIGURING THAT THE HOUNDS WOULD ALWAYS FIND WATER IN THE CREEKS AND PONDS.AFTER I LOST MAX I ALWAYS CARRY WATER WITH ME AND SAT BUCKETS OUT AT THE PEN FOR WHEN THE HOUNDS COME THROUGH THEY CAN HAVE WATER. I USALLY FILL 4 GALLON BUCKETS A NIGHT.
TODAY I WAS IMFORMED MY HUNTER HOUND HAS KIDNEY FAILURE!! HUNTER IS MY MAIN HOUND. I RAISED HIM FROM A PUP OUT OF MY OLD MISTY HOUND. HE TURNED 6 YEARS OLD IN MAY OF 2006. HE IS MY COLD TRACKING HOUND THAT I JUMP 99% OF MY YOTES WITH.HE IS JUST A ALL AROUND HOUND. HE IS NOT THE FASTEST HOUND BUT CAN GET THE JOB DONE. A YOTE STOPS ON HIM AND GAME IS OVER!! ITS GOING TO BE A BIG LOSS IN MY PACK IN LOOSING HUNTER. HE IS STILL AT THE VET AND IS DOING EVERY THING IN THE WORLD TRYING TO SAVE HIM!! I HAVE EVEN GIVEN THE HOUNDS A DRINK OF ELETTROLYTES AFTER RUNNING HARD IN THE PEN. I JUST WANTED TO LET EVERY ONE KNOW HOW IMPORTANT IT IS ON THESE HOUNDS!!.
http://tesboard68150.yuku.com/topic/860 ... -READ.html

[btadlock]

I have lost 2 dogs due to kidney failure one at 8 1/2 the other coming 5 the female that died at 8 1/2 had a daughter to go about the same age as far as the other female no kin what so ever. I maybe completely wrong on this but i think it is from dehydration i have never lost a good, average , or sorry dog due to this illness its always a real good hound thats willing to literally run and run and not get water it solwy but surely will get them. This is my opinion only on the few i have dealt with.

[bullboy]

I had to put down a good bitch going on two yrs ago what a miserable thing to watch I had her in to 2 different clinics with 4 to 5 vet consulting also with a call to the uof wis this bitch had a immune diffenicty problem also they all told me they felt that dog food is not the cause they felt genetics was the main cause now i have 2 males out of her here and one's a burner shows no signs of immune problems but i can't breed him the female was heavyline bred with one male 3 times in 3 gen i did some checking up in can about several dogs dying of the samething one being levi and many of them had the same dog in there pedigrees. as for ivomic i don't know it's strange at home on the farm we had several dogs fed them cheap food never wormed never had problems what also seems funny how many of us as kids had mutts at home did they ever get sick ours never did .thank you todd