you make the call...my deer chase from the nats

[pa beagler]

Why would Danny protest? His dog was running deer, no questions. I think the judge jumped the gun on the time out. I do not know any of the people involved, but it seems a little odd . I would have tried to see if the third dog was indeed in the race (with no time out called immediately). If he was running with them on the track opening or not for that distance, I would have scratched him. The dog does not have to come back to the handlers, but it does have to quit the track.

Well I dont know....why would he protest it on a chat board?

I know I have had dogs run pheasants, seen 5 out of 6 run it once...my dog kept going in and checking then swinging back to the judge, then would go check again, never barked but checked it several times..this went on for 5-6 minutes before the pheasant flushed. All dogs were scratched except mine. I dont think it has to quit the track, I just dont think it can pursue the track. Common sense says if 5 out of 6 dogs are running and checking and it continues for 5-10 minutes..the other dog is gonna finally check it again to make sure and then the rule would be punishing a dog harking in.....which it is not meant to do.

Just my opinion.

I agree, and maybee I don't fully understand the rules, but why would you wait or as some have suggested give them plenty of time to run off game if you know it is off game. It is only natural for a dog to hark in and check things out. For sure a competitive hound in trials. If it checked in and refused to run off game it does not have to come back and sit at the handlers feet. It can and should get back to rabbit hunting. It is tough for a competive natured hound to turn down off game and come back and sit at handlers feet instead of hunting.

[Ronnyg]

Wrongside Randy............Danny isn't protesting or complaining, he is simply putting a situation out there and asking for opinions. I kinda like the scenarios because I dont trial yet but maybe by reading these I can know what to do if I am ever in the situation.

[jogletree]

I think the real question here is where was the judge when the third dog cleared over the hill. Was he there with the handlers or was he following the dogs? That would make a big difference in whether the third dog was still in the race or if he quit and went back to hunting on the other side of the hill before returning to the handlers. You can't judge what you don't see.

[pine top]

jogletree........thank you position of the judge in this situion is what counts and if the judge called timeout before the 3rd dog joined in it saved the dog who is to say when the dog got there it did not go back to hunting rabbits it just took the handler that long to get the dog ..........i judged a cast this past sat. here in mississippi 4 dogs 8 min. left in the cast 1 dog out of 4 ran a deer i saw the deer she ran maybe a hunderd yards 3 dogs checked her 1 came back to me 2 left the area hunting in the oppasit direction took the handlers 15 min. to find and return to me with there dogs and i now thay were not runing i saw them leve hunting going over the hill to my left and the dog running the deer stoped barking but keep going when called to the handlers so by what you are saying randy is i should have DQD the 2 dogs gone hunting i dont think so that is way thay call it judging you get the judgment the man running in the woods .

[jogletree]

I wasn't there, but this seems to be the most pertinent issue. If the judge is standing there with his hands on his knees, out of breath yelling get your dogs, he doesn't know what the others are doing. Especially if they aren't barking.

[bill (flint river )]

there should be no judgeement calls in trials. there is rules, fallow the rules. once people start using judgement calls things change alot. this is another reason i will not run AHRA

[dogwhisperer]

there should be no judgeement calls in trials. there is rules, fallow the rules. once people start using judgement calls things change alot. this is another reason i will not run AHRA

so what format do you run?

[TC]

OH and there are not JUDGMENT CALLS In AKC????????
The Whole rulebook is a judgemnt call!!! IMHO

[bill (flint river )]

never said there wasnt, but there is hell of alot more in AHRA.u have ever tom ,dick and harry judging. makingn his own rules as the day goes on.

[TC]

never said there wasnt, but there is hell of alot more in AHRA.u have ever tom ,dick and harry judging. makingn his own rules as the day goes on.

True but that Can be SAID OF EVERY FORMAT then Also can it not?
At least the rules are pretty Cut n Dried in Some Formats just have to take it to a protest if you think they are not being Followed You Dont have that option in AKC there are just to MANY INTERPRETATIONS of the RULES IN SPO for me...
One judge interprets this to mean one thing another interprets it to mean Something Else All i ask for is Consistency...
So I guess i Should like AKC more as they are Consistently inconsistent??

[mobeagler]

Here we go again. Come on guys, why does it have to be a pissing contest over formats all the time. Any time there are rules, there will be interpretations and judgment calls. If you don't like one format, go to another and leave it at that. Do you really think coming on here downing other formats is going to change anybodies minds, or do you just get off on doing it. I know it sure gets old hearing about how my formats better than yours. A format is only as good as its members make it. Period. So get over it for God's sake.

[Blu Tick Beagler]

I wanted to see how far this went before I added my 2 cents.. I was the MOH on this protest. Yes it was protested... I talked in detail with this judge about what happened out there. I also spoke to Danny and a couple of the other guys in the cast. Here's how I got it.... The dog in question never went into the race. He checked the dogs several times, but kept comming back to the judge. The judge said..yes 12 minutes went by before the guy returned with the hound, but he had it on the lead long before this. It took him some time to walk back with his hound..

My main question.. Did you fee this hound ran a deer?? Judge said "He did not run the deer".. Protest over..

A few point brought up in the thread..

1.) During a timeout..NO scoring good or bad is counted..
2.) During a dead track(not timeout) scoring is still live..
3.) Yes, this was 100% a judgement call in which a MOH will always go with his judge

If there weren't judgement calls then we wouldn't need judges only score keepers.

Also, there is one way around the timeout... Example.. You have a dog on the clock.. Time runs out.. Judge says deadtrack, timeout, handle your hounds.. Hounds A and B jump a deer and burn it out of the country just after the judge says timeout. Everyone knows what just happened..

Here's how I would handle it....As the hounds are pounding out of hearing I would say "TIME IN".." OH, Hounds A and B are running a deer... They are scratched"
"Timeout again, let move our hounds while they catch them"

[danny vansickle]

I wanted to see how far this went before I added my 2 cents.. I was the MOH on this protest. Yes it was protested... I talked in detail with this judge about what happened out there. I also spoke to Danny and a couple of the other guys in the cast. Here's how I got it.... The dog in question never went into the race. He checked the dogs several times, but kept comming back to the judge. The judge said..yes 12 minutes went by before the guy returned with the hound, but he had it on the lead long before this. It took him some time to walk back with his hound..

My main question.. Did you fee this hound ran a deer?? Judge said "He did not run the deer".. Protest over..

A few point brought up in the thread..

1.) During a timeout..NO scoring good or bad is counted..
2.) During a dead track(not timeout) scoring is still live..
3.) Yes, this was 100% a judgement call in which a MOH will always go with his judge

If there were judgement calls then we would't need judges only score keepers.

Also, there is one way around the timeout... Example.. You have a dog on the clock.. Time runs out.. Judge says deadtrack, timeout, handle your hounds.. Hounds A and B jump a deer and burn it out of the country just after the judge says timeout. Everyone knows what just happened..

Here's how I would handle it....As the hounds are pounding out of hearing I would say "TIME IN".." OH, Hounds A and B are running a deer... They are scratched"
"Timeout again, let move our hounds while they catch them"

well,first of all paul,i never protested,you came to me and asked me if i was goin to protest it and i laughed and said what would i protest

then you said,well,the judge said there was a protest,

i said no,none here

now,if they protested,that is different.
as far as the judges remarks

well,he lied..............

if he told you the dog came back several times

he lied

if he said it was twelve minutes


he lied

the judge came out of the woods and said they where on deer,the judge stood beside me,shackert,sammy wells handler,and one spectator,the three dogs where gone,we could barely hear them,and the third dog was gone.

now that i am being made out to look like a liar,i am goin to give ya all the full story.........

when we pulled up to the casting area,the judge said he saw a rabbit run across the road into the field to the left,instead of turning in on it,he wasnted to turn loose back from the earea and open srike up,we agree,we got to the are the judge thought the rabbit went,a dog opens three times,no other dog honored him,he went no where,blew a hole in the ground then went on hunting,he awarded that dog a good strike.

this judge in this cast struck the 3rd dog in on two barks and gave it positive points,when we asked him how he did that,he said well,the orange dog,wich is the 3rd dog from pa,barked twice,then two other dogs barked htree times simutaniously,so,i gave it to the orange on two barks cause they came out first

here is another thing that happened in the cast,five dogs enter a bush,all five open,we have a clear view of the area,no rabbit came out,no wqy to tell who barked first,they ran up a hill about 50 yrds,turned around and came straight back to the bush,obviously they had nothing,no breeakdowns happend,yet,this judge wanted to score ajump strike on the orange,the pa dog,we all told him no one could claim that,he said well,i am perty shure it was him,so then he tells us he had a check on the orange,the third dog,the pa dog.there was nothing there,we all loked at each other in amazement.

then,next time we turned loosemy dog barlked three times,went 5 feet and put his head in a rock pile,he awardd my dog a good strike

i dont care what the judge said,the dog ran the deer along with mine,and boyers,it was gone 18 minutes and never came back to the judge till the owner came walkin down the hill with it,now that is the truth,i have no reason to lie.

the judge was dead set on lettin the 3rd dog continue from the get go of the deer race,here you have two dogs that turned it down and three gone.

if anyopne wants to know the truth,ask the young guy handlin sammy wells dog,miracle,i aint shure of his name,but he came the hunt with sammy i think.

this is the problem in lp,innexperienced judges judging nationals,big five and world hunts.the dog ran the deer,i dont care what he said,an idiot could tell that........

it never came back to check in,i was standing there by the judge the entire time.

when we told the judge that the dog is obviously with them and he has no choice but to scratch him,he said...........

i dont want bill being mad at me!

he contridicted himself over and over on what happened,when he called time out or dead track,wheather it barked or not,the guy could not get his story straight,the only thing he knew was.....

he didnt want bill mad at him.

the dog ran the deer,i am done arguing.it should have been scratched,there was ten minutes left in the cast,sammy wells dog and shackerts dog was the only dogs that deserved to continue,i was there,as was tim boyer,and i am shure he saw this post and i wish he would clear it up.

boyer was up on the hill with the owner of the third dog,ask him how long it took and ask him if the dog checked back inwith the judge,hell no it didnt check in he will tell ya.

[Blu Tick Beagler]

I wasn't trying to make anyone look like a liar. I was just trying to clear up how it should be ruled on.. Even after the entire post you wrote above... Still only one questions matters.. "Judge, Do you feel this hound ran a deer?" He said "No" ..Protest over..

[pa beagler]

I don't understand how a judge could not scratch the dog in this situation. It sounds like he was out of position to make the call. He was not sure what the third hound was doing because he was not with them. I don't expect a judge to keep up with a deer chase but he needs to account for all dogs in the cast. It is assumed that the dog was running deer since it was unaccounted for for 12 - 18 minutes. On the other hand the handler did come back with the dog so maybee it did check the race and the leave and return to hunting a rabbit. The key hear is no one really knows since the judge was out of position. In order for the judge to make a good and fair call he needed to find that third dog to SEE what it was doing. If he does not find it in a reasonable amount of time (I do not know what that is) then it is scratched. If he finds it off hunting or it returns then it is not. I am not bashing this judge since I am only going by what I have read on here, but responding to the senario.

As far as judgement calls. Get used to that! It is a part of competition. One umpire has his judgement of the stike zone another has his. Same with a basketball official and a foul. Holding in football. There are a set of rules and all we can ask is that the judge knows them and does his best to follow them with his judgement call and be consistant.