COLDTRAILIN

[snowshoehareguide]

Chris I have to disagree with you on the comment about their are more field trialers than hunters. I think gun hunters outnumber field trialers by far. I know at least 4 guys that gun hunt to every 1 that trials. In the south almost everyone has a couple of beagles in the back yard and most of them have never even thought of attending a trial.

Big Dog

ill agree with you big dog - less trialers. where i live many hunters have only a few dogs or even just one. they may only raise a pup when dogs getting to old to hunt. . trialers have a lot of dogs and raise a lot of pups. they sift thru these dogs looking for trial winners, the excess is sold to hunters. this is one reason that trials or trialers have a huge impact on the breed. there are some trialers that hunt hard. thats where ill buy my pups. i dont mind a dog that will cold trail a little. no problem if he barks if making progress with a track. i dont like dogs just booing around not going anywhere. louis ive seen that same trick. dog charge into thicket barking then circle around looking for a track. im not sure if its old track or dog just recognises rabbit cover. pete

[Chris]

Chris I have to disagree with you on the comment about their are more field trialers than hunters. I think gun hunters outnumber field trialers by far. I know at least 4 guys that gun hunt to every 1 that trials. In the south almost everyone has a couple of beagles in the back yard and most of them have never even thought of attending a trial.

Big Dog

That's certainly not the case in this area. I know quite a few Beagle owners within an hour of me and I can only think of one other guy that actively gun hunts -- that, compared to 15 or 20+ that actively field trial.

A lot of this stuff on cold-trailing is speculation. We have no way of knowing if the track's hot or cold; all we know is whether or not a rabbit gets started and run to the gun. The trouble with having such an 'anti'-cold-trailing attitude is this: if I got rid of every dog that barked alone before the rest of the pack started barking then I wouldn't have crap for dogs. I could gun hunt all winter and I'd have to only pick the good days to go, or I'd have to get creative making excuses like barometric pressure, or too this or too that... sound familiar? That's not rabbit hunting.

So, I guess I condone dogs with strong noses, who smell the track before the others do, and barks for a while before the other dogs bark. Or even better yet, a dog that keeps a rabbit going when other dogs can't; because they can smell it -- that's the trend I've seen with the dogs I've seen run when it's tough going. Everyone wants perfect mouth, but unfortunately it often comes at a cost; and that cost tends to be lack of nose.

Pete's right. Keep breeding perfect mouthed dogs, and cull anything with enough nose to get it into trouble, and pretty soon you'll have a bunch of summertime field trial champions... as if we need any more of those.

[JCM]

Keep breeding perfect mouthed dogs, and cull anything with enough nose to get it into trouble, and pretty soon you'll have a bunch of summertime field trial champions... as if we need any more of those.

If you believe this is true, then breeding cold trailers who bark before they have a rabbit, generation after generation will lead to dogs who always get in trouble.

I would rather breed for dogs with brains enough to keep their mouth shut until the jump and hopefully get smarter dogs with each generation. In my experiences, dogs that cold trail are never the smartest dogs.

Shouldn't we be breeding for dogs with a perfect mouth? I really can't understand the logic of breeding for dogs that don't have a perfect mouth.

[ACOMEAU]

Is the dog still available? I am still waiting. I am not sure why we continue to argue about this, just do what works for you. I will how ever envite anyone one from south of New England to come up and spend a week end in january or February with me and run, free of charge, your dogs.

[Chris]

Shouldn't we be breeding for dogs with a perfect mouth? I really can't understand the logic of breeding for dogs that don't have a perfect mouth.

You've missed my point. Of course, perfect mouth is desirable. The trouble is, though, when you wear blinders and don't take everything into consideration, you'll breed the nose right out of your dogs when culling anything with enough nose to get it into trouble. You can take the smartest Beagle in existence and that doesn't mean he's got nose enough to run on difficult days. You don't have to look far to find strains of perfect-mouthed, poor nose dogs around. They're a result of generations of breeding dogs that never misplace a bark. If you want to consistentyly have good runs and kill rabbits in the north during the winter months you can't afford to have the good scenting conditions mindset, because if you do you'll be bored a lot in the woods, because you'll have a lot of sloooooow days.

Whenever you breed for anything at the expense of everything else, you end up in trouble. Just look at what breeding for ultimate line control got the brace beagles. Look what breeding for ultimate speed has got many of the coyote hounds. Look what breeding for looks only got the show world. Want to take any of these dogs gun hunting on a 10 degree day on 16" of week-old snow? I don't think so.

[Steve C.]

Chris, I understand your point. A dog has GOT to have nose to be successful when the temperature plummets and the snow flies. We'll forgive some shortcomings with mouth if the hound consistently produces game. Let's face it, none of us have perfect dogs and all have weaknesses. I'll forgive a bit of cold trailing in a dog that can run on very tough days just as most anyone would if he ventures out in January through March. But he doesn't have to EXPECT improper mouth from a hound with a great nose. All of us who breed should be conscious of this when we make a cross. We strive for perfection and settle for "good enough" when we get it. I haven't bred a perfect one yet, but I've bred some I'm proud of and I know you do pretty well with a couple of them. Had they stayed 13" I wouldn't have parted with them. I breed primarily for a hunting dog but enjoy trialing the better ones too. Some days they get to show their nose in a trial and some they don't. That's the breaks. The fact is that we hunters definately benefit from trial hounds and vice-versa. All my hounds originally come from hounds who were trialed and I choose among the various bloodlines for the strengths that I feel are required to successfully produce hare in winter conditions. That's one reason I have a lot of Canadian blood in my kennel- most of these guys hunt in tougher conditions than us. Lots of champions couldn't get the job done while others are outstanding. It's up to us to do our homework. The GM of a baseball team knows there are lots of ballplayers out there, but only a few that can help their team. Same with us kennel owners. I never look at trialers and hunters as "us vs them". We both have a lot to gain by being involved with each other.

[Joe West]

The fact is that none of us need a hound that cold trails. We all need hounds that can get the job done in all conditions. That's the bottom line; getting the job done. The experiance of some has led them to beleive that only a hound who cold trails has a powerful enough nose to get the job done; while the experiance of others has led them to beleive that a hound need not cold trail to have a superior nose. What no one should beleive is that a fault ever becomes a desired quality. I would think that even among the cold trailing advocates there would be agreement that all things equal between two hounds and both have superior noses except that one cold trails and one does not then the one that does not would be the better hound. Would you folks agree with that?

[bkg]

Hey Joe. I appreciate the info you gave us for NY. We plan on going back in march. Didn't find alot of hare but found huntable populations.

Joe i believe we all are in agreement on the nose part but here is why i personally like a dog that will cold trail a little. If you take a pack out and one cold trails a little and does it right the others in the pack seem to stick together and work the line to a jump as a team. We all know that working together as one will lead to a faster reward.

In the same scenario in the pack if none cold trail then all could possibly be working in different areaa. One hound could have a jumpable line but is having trouble. Since he won't open the others have no idea he is close to a jump and therefore work independantly where if the dog opened and they pulled to it to help the odds are much greater of getting the hare up.

I am not against independant searching that is what we are looking for but the goal is to get the game up. Again we are talking about a cold trail dog not a babbler. To me this dogs is a very valuable member of any team. Wish i could find another.

Thanks,

Brian

[Bob Wiest]

Chris it seems pretty obvious to me that the breeding of hole blowing hobby hounds has created a strong resentment of absolutely any extra mouth. I run in the Midwest Association every now and then and I see what this resentment is eventually going to lead, but that is not my problem. I would like to help you with a problem you now have. Given the fact a large portion of beaglers out there don't like extra mouth, for the sake of your business why don't you announce that you are going to eliminate all your mouthy coldtrackers. I'd be willing to help you in this operation in anyway I could. Just trying to be helpful.........Bob

[Joe West]

bkg: Yes and under that same type of thnking one hound could be inches away from jumping a hot rabbit when he is called away before finding it by the cold trailer who opend on a cold line; so we just might want them working independantly until game is up. Antoher thought I have on that is a hound should need no help getting his game up. Is a hound a babbler if he opens on a line that he himself cannot produce on?

That's about what we find up there lately, huntable hare but no great numbers. 7 or 8 years ago the hare population was much better up there and seeing as it's forever wild land I don't know what happened unless it's the combination of bobcat, coyotes and wolves. Coyotes are booming up there lately.

[bkg]

Joe, Can't argue that is a valid point but as you well know on some days the weather and conditions are so bad that all dogs will occasionally need help. Atleast mine do however i wish they didn't!

The thing i noticed most is where we hunt hare in WV it is rough and very very thick with spruce. The best looking spot we found had some spruce but honestly we found very little good cover and none that was comparable to what we are accustomed to having to hare hunt in. We find most our hare in 10 year old clear cuts that grow back in spruce and laurel. That was big country and we probably just weren't in the right areas but i would say the biggest problem would be the overabundance of large mature timber and the lack of small stanting young trees. They are definately there and we will try them again soon.

Brian

[Chris]

all things equal between two hounds and both have superior noses except that one cold trails and one does not then the one that does not would be the better hound. Would you folks agree with that?

Absolutely. I agree with that 100%. I'd love to think that there are hounds aplenty, that you describe. My experience has been to the contrary. I've hunted over quite a lot of dogs from all over the country; much of it has been in pretty difficult conditions. If these perfect mouthed, big nosed dogs are abundant you'd think I'd have seen one of them.

This cold-trailing thing reminds me of a conversation sometime last year, about backtracking. The concensus of many in the topic was that a dog that would go as little as 3 feet in the wrong direction was a no-good, backtracking cull, and they'd never put up with that for one minute. I've never laid eyes on a dog that wouldn't go backwards a bit at times, if I followed them long enough. But, there are those who say that a dog that they'd witness go x feet backwards is a cull. They measured it in feet. I'm not kidding. Same nonsensical, idealistic, impractical type logic. These are only dogs, and they've all got flaws. Some we can live with and some we can't, I guess. All I'm saying is that productive occasional cold-trailing seems to be a common denominator in the dogs I've seen with enough nose to run when virtually all others can't.

You've almost got me feeling as though I'm promoting mouthy cold-trailers. The truth is, I'm not. What I am saying is that I appreciate a dog that can consistently run when others can't, and of the handful I've seen that could, they'd all use a little extra mouth here and there, and tend to consistently smell a track and announce it before other dogs do. Of all the faults that a dog can have, especially gundogs, this is so minor that it shouldn't even make the chalkboard, in my opinion.

Can't believe how much fun talking about dogs and rabbit hunting is.

[Guest]

I ran with a guy this past weekend that was a really nice guy,we turned the dogs out and his never shut up,this dog had supposedly won 2 hunts.
Our dogs never barked with his at all,I stood in a spot and watched thinking I was running culls, here his dog came through and yet no rabbit ever came through there.
And guys wonder how dogs like this become champions.
I can tell you that dog has fooled amany a judge.
Now if I had have been in that guys shoes I would have had to ask some questions, Like why arent your guys dogs barking.
This dog was a champion dog.
Maybe he knew and then again maybe he didnt.
I just can't believe judges let this stuff slip through.
Maybe a little off the subject but I figure this guy thot his dog was coldtrailing but who knows.
I call that ghost tracking, few out there that did that and have made there way through with unlearned judges. Even some big time people
JUDGES, pay attention to all the dogs not just the one that is doing all the barking.

[warddog]

Guest, That is what I call BABBLING (No game produced so must not be a track period).

[Steve C.]

I had a young hound that everyone who saw her run raved about. She had size, speed, clean mouth, always up where the work was being done. I wasn't sold on her- she was always in the right place but always had another dog ahead of her. Never could quite take the lead. She never seemed to improve but because so many thought she was outstanding I entered her in several Large Pack trials. Never once did she place. The general answer was that she was a "Me Too" hound which was what I suspected all along. Sometimes my faith in judges gets renewed from time to time.