Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

[thornie]

Learing some good stuff here. Bill sorry about the pictures and you wearing glasses. Is this your excuse for not posting pictures of your hunt this weekend,becuse of the glasses or you can't see good enough to shoot them.

[wvbill]

Thornie,

I carried a gun about 100yds, to take it out of the trailer and hand it to another person, then to put it back when he was done with it. That is it. We could of shot some rabbits that is for sure. I could of probably done better with my eyes closed and my pistol than the rest of them did with shotguns and their eyes opened. We ran 13 and killed 6 ran from around 9:30 to 4:28. There was close to 15 to 20 shots fired and a ton of laughs. Around half of the chase went out of hearing. Very Very large circles. Actually pucker factor ones. And even those that didnt go out of hearing were pretty big ones. The last rabbit we ran for a little over an hour and he was sneaking through stuff and no one could get a good bead on him. We pulled the dogs off that track and went to the trucks. It was 3 degrees Sunday morning when I woke up with a wind chill of -19.

Pictures are hopefully coming soon. I didnt take the camera but another gentlemen did.

Betsy,

Thanks for your input.

If the proper front and rear are in place " appropriate angles of the shoulder and rear hip" The back and ribs will naturally allow for appropriate loin length on each dog. The loin length is driven by the vertabraes and the muscles and ligaments between them. Correct?

If my statement above is true, Then why does not a bigger boned dog have a larger loin?

When I get a loin at the butcher shop it is basically a back section and is cut. It is my understanding that the loin MUSCLE extends up past part of the last ribs.

Had to edit due to spelling. LOL

Bill

[ohlinger.s]

Shawn, I got it at a seminar that etheir Bruce Smith or Hal Davis put on at the club. I suppose you woul like to have a copy.

I suppose so Thornie!! LOL.

[Windkist]

I finally found time today to read the posts here.. What a great discussion going on. I'll try to reply when I have time. I've been really busy with my elderly parents right now among other things and haven't had much time for sitting and typing ;-) I'll check in from time to time.

miss you all!!

leah

[Moore Beagles]

BeagleBrit wrote
(Some who favor the Generic AKC Show DOG movement TRAD(tremendous reach and drive)...prefer dogs with slightly longer loins as it helps in create the rear drive but very often faulty movement.)

I maybe completely wrong, but I believe alot of the Show ring movement is developed from the length in the tendons of the legs. My show bred dogs lay around with thier legs pushed out straight like they are in the stacked position. My thinking is the tendons are shorter and tighter and creates this heels kicked up look in the ring. My field dogs never lay around with this rigamortis look, they usually curl up, but these show dogs have to stack in thier sleep. What ever it is there seems to be a big difference between the two. With all that being said I have not seen a difference in the ability to move in the field. Maybe in desire, in hunt, in proper mouth (tight mouth)but not in movement.
I had to catch up on the posts myself, I had to go look at some pups, because WV Bill won't sell me a female

[Lefgren-Lane]

The pictures (drawings) posted earlier by thornie that Hal Davis or Bruce Smith gave out at a seminar can also be found (along with many more) at Bruce Smith's web page.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Mead ... eagle.html

The pictures were published in a book on beagles printed in the early 1950's. I think 1953 or 55. Can not remember title at the moment. Again from memory, the drawings were done by an artist by the name of Brown and were commissioned by the Gaines Dog Food Company either during or slightly after WWII.

The observations by Betsy of the pounding front of the show bred hound is a good one. In virtually all cases you will find that the show bred hounds proportions are the cause. Not only do they lack angulation in the front, the proportion of upper arm length to length of scapal (shoulder blade) less than in good running hounds. Also the proportion of leg length showing under the body in proportion to depth of body is under one to one (air under hound is less than body depth). Good moving hounds will have air under them that is over 100 percent of body depth. Ideally 110 percent to 120 percent of body depth.

Good moving hounds are usually considered too light boned and bodied to be correct for the current show ring fads. We must always remember that excess mass in muscle or bone are enemies of good field performance, speed, agility, and endurance. To move that mass burns energy, slows response, inhibits quickness, and takes away flexibility.

Ohlinger had some good observations concerning his own hounds and also those bred for running hare. SR Patch also. While the beagle has been adapted for all kinds of quarry and the requirements of various field trial formats, associations etc., we must always keep in mind that the original hound was bred for the express purpose of being a "run to catch and kill" performer. The conformation needed to perform that task is the historically correct conformation for the breed. A quick look on the net for pictures of beagles in the traditional packs in the UK gives us all a chance to look at the kind of structure needed to perform the task the beagle was bred to accomplish.

Here are a couple pics of a hound show in Ireland. http://www.irishbeagling.org/Show_07/DSCF0047.JPG
http://irishbeagling.org/Show_07/DSCF0045.JPG
These are nice examples of the breed that point up the difference in running hounds and current show ring types. A look around the net for UK pack beagles and more and also better examples of the breed can be found.

[Beaglebrit]

[[/quote]

When I get a loin at the butcher shop it is basically a back section and is cut. It is my understanding that the loin MUSCLE extends up past part of the last ribs.

Well...I am retired and have a part time job as a butcher at our local Kroger Store..so I know something of cut loins!!! and I retired from managing a 450 brood sow Hog farm, (240 piglets a week,just like puppies only different! Whelped..oops...Farrowed a lot of piglets) I managed the breeding program, so I know something of Loins...(LOL) The loin techincally does start before the end of the rib but in reality ,in dogs, for that hands on in the ring starts at the last rib

If the proper front and rear are in place " appropriate angles of the shoulder and rear hip" The back and ribs will naturally allow for appropriate loin length on each dog. The loin length is driven by the vertabraes and the muscles and ligaments between them. Correct?If my statement above is true, Then why does not a bigger boned dog have a larger loin?

the loin should be in proportion to the rest of the dog...I believe the Beagles AKC judges Education seminar suggests that the rib should be 2/3 and the loin 1/3. Now if you had a 3XL beagle in a Medium world I would expect his loin to be longer .....but if he was a well put together dog the proportions would remain constant. even though the size may be larger.
Betsy

[tiffinis]

my first dive into this conversation. I believe everybody has passion for what they are doing whether it be field or show, or they wouldn't be here in the first place. I also feel we have something to learn from everybody. First, on the comments on ecollars. Abused an ecollar can ruin a good dog quick. All of my dogs from labs to beagles are fine tuned with an ecollar. Especially when they hit that juvenile delinquent stage around a year. But ALL of them have all of their commands understood long before they ever have one put on their neck. They are only used as a "reminder" when they refuse to recall. A lifesaver when hunting in a state as small and populated as PA. I have on one occasion, used one to "break a thief". I had the dog out, "forgot" his collar on. Left some chicken nuggets on the counter, went out in the hall where I could see the reflection in the oven door. The second his feet hit the edge of that counter, I nailed him. 6 years later that dog still will not steal off the counter anymore. NONE of my dogs are bashful or cowardly, quite the opposite. Wish I could use it on the 2 leggeds in my life sometimes.

As for conformation. Here is our Patch Stud:


Is he perfect for the show world, no. Can he run rabbits for hours on end and actually be fast enough to catch them. Yes. That is exactly what he was bred for. Not an ounce of fat on him, he weighs in at 27 lbs. I also realize that this photo makes his back legs look crooked, which they are not.

Misty:

The mother of our most recent litter of pups. She has the most "houndy" head and a stockier build. I dont think her tail carriage is quite as high as I would like to see. She has been on rabbits and loves it. However she lives with Scott's mom and we don't hunt her anymore, since it would break her heart if anything happened to her companion.

Lacie:

Better put together conformation wise, but not near as fast as Sage, though she can corner like a champ and has hunt that never stops. I love her tailset and her happy happy "Westminster Swing" as she trots out on a lead.

As for our exercise program, field work and tennis balls:




My odds of getting a show hound out of Patch blood are slim. I have 6 out of 6 pups from our litter with Misty and Sage at my disposal. They all stayed within the family. We kept 2, his mom kept 2, his brother kept one and our daughter and her boyfriend kept 1. There are a couple I may actually try to do some showing with.... if they don't go over height. These dogs are "marketed" as PURE hunt, and they are. But they also make great companion dogs in the house.

My kitchen:


Leah and Cindy, thanks for all your input and encouragement. SR Patch and Crabtree, thanks to you for keeping me on the Willet philosophy. Maybe someday I can merge the 2 worlds I want to be in.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Hmmmmmm.....too bad you can't send Lacie or Misty to Leah or I for a little visit. I think Parker or Joe could get you a good start on a show pup....Lacie's body looks very nice she just needs a little work on her head structure....Mistys head is better but I like Laceys body best. Nice Beagles and what a wonderful home!!
email me at honeypothounds@aol.com if you want to talk about it.

[tiffinis]

Thanks Cindy. As you can see from the line up in the kitchen. Their heads are all quite different. Lacie is in the back there, it shows her head a little better then the snow shot. She was giving attitude to somebody that day outside. I have given alot of thought to breeding to Parker's lemon and white son at Moore's. My first pick though, I think would be Tigger.....

What I noticed when I went to the show in this area, besides an extreme lack of female 15" competition, is that the body and movement seemed to be ranking higher then perfect head. Especially the ones that seemed happy happy to be in the ring.

[mooredog]

OUCH !!!!! LOL !!!!

[tiffinis]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it as a zinger. Reading back through my post somebody outta ME. I am NOT by any means one to be judging. I have loved the looks of Tigger from the first time I saw him. But I have never seen him move, checked out his temperament or anything else. By all means, I have seen a lot more of your prodigy's. I have watched the video clips on your website etc.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

I'm not even sure Tigger still has all of his parts as he is in a pet home in Virginia
http://honeypothounds.com/TiggerShow.html
but his movement and temperment were/are both excellent and he has a gorgeous head.

As far as heads in show competition go, as long as the head is nice enough with correct eyes, ears and bite the judges really SHOULD be putting more emphasis on the beagles movement and conformation...as we all know they don't run on their heads
The happy happy beagles win because our beagles are supposed to be "merry little hounds."

There's not much uglier than a sculky dog, of any breed, IMO.

[tiffinis]

AMEN!! Hallelujah!!