Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Leah, here's two options, move closer to myself and Patch or send them to us for their field trialing and then you can take them to the shows after.

LOL LOL LOL
Now here's a guy who's thinking

[Windkist]

Leah,theres 2 choices I could give you. You could move closer to Patch and me or just send them to us fro their field trialing and once we have finished them, then you can start showing them.

Believe me! I'd like to move and leave some troubles behind...LOL Ain't gonna happen! I do have some dogs in hunting homes and from the feedback I am getting they are doing pretty good ;-)

Leah

[thornie]

I'm glad you have some in hunting homes, let me know the outcome. I would love to have one, but I'm getting ready to take 3 to the vet. I have to have some tails cropped. They look like possum tails and are bleeding. One looks like he painted his side after running.

[Beaglebrit]

Take your hound out on rough or plowed ground and throw your bone for him, or have a friend call him across the field. See if he fumbles or faulters crossing the plow or running down hill cross the rough, doesn't seem to flow cross ground with ease. This is the test for your angle and balance. muscling being loaded, length and other inhibitors will show in lack of long duration... I am a poor enough judge and can only tell by seeing hounds in action "galloping" over time... Remember, conformation is only needed to be "adequate" or at the required level, to carry the nose and the headfull of "rabbit sense" of the hound in pursuit of the game until shot, caught or holed, this being done for a full day, for a number of days ..any nitpicking at perfection in conformation, over regard towards hunting quality is going backwards as to the breed and it's intended purpose...ajmho
(

Mr. Patch...I love your post...I have a show bred female who at a trot on level ground moves effortlessly...I have had some very nice wins with her in the AKC show ring...Beating nationally ranked show champions for BOB at under a year old and having been considered for a group placement at under 1 year old.....but take her to the field and at a little bit faster than a trot (at a slow lope) she just pounds that front!!!!! It is painful to watch her move...On the other hand I have a field bred bitch who can cover ground effortlessly at a trot or a lope and her sister is the same way(they both can work in the pack to run and circle a rabbit for over an hour's running time)...I have been trying to determine the mechanics of this...and it eludes me. I think the show bred dog has a slightly shorter uppper arm to shoulder angluation. But it astounds me that she moves so well at a flying trot but can't cover ground in the field
Any way wiih us luck this weekend I have the Field bred bitch entered in an AKC conformation show....I am hoping her movement will catch a judges eye
Betsy

[wvbill]

Patch,

You bring up some very good points but having show hounds that can run a rabbit and rabbit dogs that are shown I can tell you. Is every dog this way No. But not every hound has the hunt we like, or the foot speed, or check ability.

My Hawk male is show breeding. He Trots with the best of them on the show lead. Big boned and so forth.

When he first started running it was actually comical to watch him. He ran with reckless abandon. Was not afraid of the brush or anything. Kinda reminded you of a bull in a china shop with freshly waxed floors. We laughed at him numerous times til our sides were sore. He seemed clumsy and so forth.

He is quite a bit smoother now and he has only been doing this for over 2 months and it will get better with time. He has adapted, because he has been subjected to it. He is run everyday I can run the hounds. The more he goes out I start seeing him reaching more for drive. Starting to be smoother when going through the brush, starting to be more like a snake than the bull. Dont see him trotting much when he is out, more of a walk. Granted, he will occasionally get that pep in his step.

Conformation and hunting quality should be the same not one given a higher priorty. If you feel that you need to do that. Then fine, but to me you are only wanting to better the breed for hunt characteristics. Some will be just the opposite of you. I myself, want to do both.

We need these hounds to run all day and be able to hunt in any conditions we subject them too. Plus be pleasing to the eyes. They also do not need to have skeletal problems that break them down just out of their prime years due to being run so much when they were younger.

Bill

[TC]

Well said WVBill. That is what I think we are trying to say is we want the meld of both worlds. The beagle field or show is under the same standard and with out looking at the same standard and working to achieve the merits of these standards when breeding your dog and only looking for one quality won't work. Where I feel we are fortunate the ones of us that run in the field and show our dogs is we have fantastic mentors from both sides the spectrum to get advise. We are looking at our dogs from both sides of the fence and know where we are lacking and where we need the help.

I know it will probably take eons and a lifeitme of dedication of working on this in mind to get to that goal, but if someone don't start the job it may never get done. I just want to say how fortunate I feel that we do have mentors from the field and show side that can tell you honestly when something isn't right about what is wrong with your dog and tell you where you need help cause there is times I personally don't see everything either. And sometimes my rose colored glases are just a little foggy too, just like anyone elses. Don't mean nothing wrong with it just means that we are proud of our dogs no matter what and we are emotionally involved in what we are doing and sometimes it takes good discussion like these to open yer eyes just a little more to see what others experience/or have noticed.

And Patch I think you have some very nice hounds. And I have seen some very nice hounds out there in these field trials I have been attending that would put a lot of those show hounds to shame if presented in a ring with the right person.

[Moore Beagles]

When I first came to this board a few years ago I read and studied things written and stated with an open mind. We can learn from the wealth of experience that is thrown out here on this board, and I have learned alot over the past couple years. When someone with Leahs, and Cindy's, background and experience talk, I listen.
I grew up with field Beagles, and have been around them and raised and hunted them most of my life. A couple years ago I bought my 1st show beagle, with excellent comformation, you know what he has a gear none of my other beagles have, he can flat out FLY, he outs runs, out manuverses all of the others, because he has a superior structure and athletic body. When he moves it is effortless, he can just glide or he can kick it in and he can hit the gas and close on any of them.
I have a AKC/UKC field trial female that has alot of hunt and desire on the track, but lacks some comformation, and it shows after a long day in the field. She just won't quit, but she has to work for everything.
Someday SOON these guys like TC, WV Dollar Bill, and Don MCVay, and gonna hit on some dual blood with proper angles and build, and a burning desire and ability to hunt. Then everybody will be wanting what they have, because that is what will be the winning combo, week in, and week out...

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Moore Beagles I think that is going to happen real soon Donny just sent me a picture of a Field X Show pup he has that looks like she'd finish really fast in the AKC show ring
My question to you fellows would be this: Do you tend to like the dogs to be super submissive to you? Our showdogs need to feel very bold and confident and have a "no man is my enemy" attitude. Many of the dogs that I have adopted or observed that have belonged to hunters seem super submissive and literally afraid of men. You absolutely can't have that in the show ring...they must gait back to the judge and pose with a gentle, loving, alert and proud expression ( A tail up and wagging helps bigtime too!). Sckulkers are Losers in the showring. Tails between the legs on the go around don't cut it. WHY is this common, in my impression, amongst field beagles??

[Beagled1]

Sckulkers are Losers in the showring. Tails between the legs on the go around don't cut it. WHY is this common, in my impression, amongst field beagles??

Socialization & early imprinting. I know many Beaglers that let their kids play with the pups, handle them from a young age on a daily basis, expose the pups to other adults when old enough ... not unlike the socialization program of show breeders. Only it's not called a socialization program, it's fooling around with the pups, lol Then you have others who leave the pups in their pens and don't handle them at al all or very little for the first few weeks of their life. It's not done callously, but I've personally met a few who feel it's better to let the dam care for the whelps and leave her be.

One of mine is shy towards strangers but doesn't produce this trait in any of her pups. I debated breeding her very seriously, almost didn't. Not only are none of her pups shy, they are quite outgoing. Many live in the city and are perfectly confident in crowded Manhattan streets ... I handle her pups several times a day, use early neurological stimulation, and go out of my way to expose them to new people, places, things. They need these experiences to be confident in stressful situations, and they also need to have that socialization carried on as adults - not all field Beagles are out and about as much. Some aren't getting to meet new people & see scenery besides the field- many are, but porobably just as many are not. Shyness can be genetic but I'm a believer that nurture takes precedence over nature.

[S.R.Patch]

Moore Beagles I think that is going to happen real soon Donny just sent me a picture of a Field X Show pup he has that looks like she'd finish really fast in the AKC show ring
My question to you fellows would be this: Do you tend to like the dogs to be super submissive to you? Our showdogs need to feel very bold and confident and have a "no man is my enemy" attitude. Many of the dogs that I have adopted or observed that have belonged to hunters seem super submissive and literally afraid of men. You absolutely can't have that in the show ring...they must gait back to the judge and pose with a gentle, loving, alert and proud expression ( A tail up and wagging helps bigtime too!). Sckulkers are Losers in the showring. Tails between the legs on the go around don't cut it. WHY is this common, in my impression, amongst field beagles??

Honey, you should go to the World Hunt in Indiana. There will be 6-700 field beagles there for you to observe, all happy to be together and eager to go hunting.
To us, beagles are pack animals. They must be biddable and enjoy working for us. A pack of headstrong independents is no fun to try and hunt with. I think you hit the nail on the head when you spoke about exposure and conditioning, alot of our hounds are kept in country and some don't get frendly with folks right off the bat but a friendly scratch behind the ear will soon have you painted with paw prints...
Showing and parading around is just not something we do or look for in our hounds, as long as their a rabbits worst nightmare, if they sulk when being returned to kennels, we pat them on the head and tell them "don't fret my little beauties, we'll go again tomorrow"...

[thornie]

Honey, if you was chasing them threw the briars and brambles you would want them to listen to the down command. When they have rabbit on there mind nothing will deter that. The way your flashing that little whip icon in your replies would even make submisseve.

[Moore Beagles]

Cindy I think Beagled1 hit the nail on the head, I know Socialization in the early months is critical to a pup, if a pup is raised in a pen and not a home you will see a whole different boldness or shyness. We raise every pup in the home for this very reason. They need that interaction between thier owner. We also have two boys to hold and play with them, and that makes a big difference. Cindy I have seen show breed beagles have the same tendencies when raised in the same enviroment. I agree with you, The ones I want have that BOLDNESS, and Bullheaded disposition.
As The Famous Talladega Nights Nascar driver Ricky Bobby said they are Winners and winners can do what ever they want! Winners NOT

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Maybe it's also from the owner-induced corrections from shock collars used to handle the beagles? I use shock collars for my invisible fence and for barkers but usually I am not associated with the correction...know what I mean?...well once one of my bitch pups went through the invisible fence and panicked and sat in the field of shock. I ran in to get her out as I sometimes have to do during Invisible Fence training, and she always BLAMED ME for that one bad shock and had more of a /timid/spooky personality to humans...needless to say I couldn't show her in the showring but she finished her championship with an old friend handling her AND she went on to make a fine enough pet for someone else .

SO, just wondering if yelling a command at a dog and then shocking it makes it one of those belly crawler submissives. Also, many of the field beagles I've had come visit here are afraid of my husband, but not me. So with the field beagles I've seen it seems like a "man issue" too....

[TC]

In My honest opinion i think Alot of the Submissive attitude Come from breeding Also along with Socialization ALL our hounds Are very Friendly toward people to a Point they are NOT tail Down sulking types but if they Dont know you they wont Come to you either...
The Show Folks Dont get over 20 feet from their Dogs hardly Ever when they are around people!! The Dogs get used to being Around Crowds in thew SHOW world You Dont have that in the Field!!!
take one of them FIELD Dogs as a Pup and take it to crowded area (DOG SHOWS) it will get used to being around Large Bodies of people We usually take ours With us as pups just to get them used to it...
NOW Another thing that Alot of Show Folks Dont have to Worry about is DOG THIEVES YES it happens all to often look back on these Boards Dogs are Runnin all at once Shut up Look Over the hill and there goes your Dog in Someone Elses Truck...
Mine Will Climb all over ya At a Show if ya Want but Will hardly Come to you in the field oh Sure they can be Coaxed as we have other Folks handle our Dogs in the field as well THEY MUST HANDLE to Hunt or Trial...
I honestly Do NOT SEE that many Shy Or tail Down hounds at the trials..... Most imbody the Spirit of the merry little hound

[ohlinger.s]

Lol i obviously don't have the knowledge some of you have on this topic, but my feelings are if you feel you have to build the dogs muscle tone by givieng it a work out or you're dog is "soft" from keeping it in a crate ???? then the dog propably is'nt what you're trying to make it out to be anyways. I could'nt ever see myself putting a dog on a treadmill to define muscle tone. I could'nt imagine keeping a dog in a crate either. I guess it's a totaly different world but dog show fanicers could learn a few things from field trialers in how a dog develops i supposed. Let the dog be what it will be that is in it's breeding. If you are just raiseing a dog for show, and you are concerned about it's muscle tone give the dog the excercise its bred for. That is how you're going to find it's true build anyhow. Walking the dog in the show ring it might look pretty trotting beside you and if you find the right pace where the dogs gait looks good then you are just covering up how it really moves, Lol I'm very biased in the statement, but if you showing a dogs true ability in the field you are not hideing anything, showing a dog people hide things or over or under exagerate things, you should be breeding the dog to it's best "natural" build not haveing to tone the dog properly or gate the dog etc.. in a manner to make it look better than it really is. Angles and etc.. i will keep my fingers off that subject lol. I'd love to keep learning from this board but perhaps you guys can help me to get over my biased opinions of the strictly show dog world. I just don't agree with practices used in showing, and can't imgagine breeding a dog regardless of it's ability to do it's job in the field. I do want a rabbit dog that looks good according the standard but I would kill to see the dogs the standard was based on. The earlier hounds of the late 1800's look nothing like the show dogs of today tho.