Boy talk about dead, so what about angles

[wvbill]

VAN-MAR Thanks for your post.

I totally agree that proper muscle development is crucial.

[Van-Mar Beagles]

VAN-MAR Thanks for your post.

I totally agree that proper muscle development is crucial.

No problem, talking beagles is my passion!

[S.R.Patch]

Take your hound out on rough or plowed ground and throw your bone for him, or have a friend call him across the field. See if he fumbles or faulters crossing the plow or running down hill cross the rough, doesn't seem to flow cross ground with ease. This is the test for your angle and balance. muscling being loaded, length and other inhibitors will show in lack of long duration... I am a poor enough judge and can only tell by seeing hounds in action "galloping" over time...
Hounds hunted days in a row will show their weakness whether in body, spirit or hunting gifts. Anything short of this, is an incomplete evaluation as to the beagle and the breed purpose...imho

Remember, conformation is only needed to be "adequate" or at the required level, to carry the nose and the headfull of "rabbit sense" of the hound in pursuit of the game until shot, caught or holed, this being done for a full day, for a number of days ..any nitpicking at perfection in conformation, over regard towards hunting quality is going backwards as to the breed and it's intended purpose...ajmho
Alas, the difference between owners and their charges that hunt and owners that only compete the show hounds...To me, what a sad day to have the perfect conformation in a beagle that wouldn't hunt or lacked the unseen gifts needed to fulfill it's purpose...

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Leah,

Thanks for your thoughts, Still want to hear Cindy chime in.


Bill

Why thankya for thinking of me Mr. Bill
I'm with whatever Leah said on this one! About the only thing she and I don't always see eye to eye on is politics but when it comes to Beagles she's pretty much always right in my book

[TC]

Take your hound out on rough or plowed ground and throw your bone for him, or have a friend call him across the field. See if he fumbles or faulters crossing the plow or running down hill cross the rough, doesn't seem to flow cross ground with ease. This is the test for your angle and balance. muscling being loaded, length and other inhibitors will show in lack of long duration... I am a poor enough judge and can only tell by seeing hounds in action "galloping" over time...
Hounds hunted days in a row will show their weakness whether in body, spirit or hunting gifts. Anything short of this, is an incomplete evaluation as to the beagle and the breed purpose...imho

Remember, conformation is only needed to be "adequate" or at the required level, to carry the nose and the headfull of "rabbit sense" of the hound in pursuit of the game until shot, caught or holed, this being done for a full day, for a number of days ..any nitpicking at perfection in conformation, over regard towards hunting quality is going backwards as to the breed and it's intended purpose...ajmho
Alas, the difference between owners and their charges that hunt and owners that only compete the show hounds...To me, what a sad day to have the perfect conformation in a beagle that wouldn't hunt or lacked the unseen gifts needed to fulfill it's purpose...

Awe but SR PATCH You forget, we do hunt rabbits and run our dogs in the field, we are just trying to discuss conformation issues and what we have seen that cause/hamper their ability while in the field. Yes Leah and Cindy are strictly Show competition, however I do both. I might not be as high up on the ladder as they are or the top FC folks, however I feel that the build is important. The dogs are atheletes not actors, there for we must to get a structure view of what is helping/hendering what we are trying to achieve. Yes watching them in the field does give proof to the pudding, have seen it myself. But whos to say that maybe that dog that is not as good in the field because of her build should maybe not have had a CH put on her. I have also seen the ones that need some serious conformation help not do so well too.

Like Leah stated if the muscle / and frame isn't built to carry the load it expends more energy doing exactly the same thing that a well built hound would expend less energy and have more stamina and less aches and pains by the end of the day.

If we aren't willing to look at this with an open mind then we are back at square one.

At least Leah and Cindy are offering us information and the experience they have that would take us eons to get. There is so many breeders on the other side of the fence you wouldn't get this help from. If they are willing to help me then I am all ears and will listen and try and learn all they are willing to teach me for I am definately no expert. Their specialty is in the conformation area and I respect them for all their hard work because showing is no cake walk believe me.

What WVBill, Thorney (bless his heart), Moorebeagles, myself and a few others are trying to learn is the proper structure, and we take what they give us and we will have to deciffer the information and interpret this information to mold it to our needs. Just like we do when we are on the field trials section. We take the information posted there and interpret it and use that information to better our dogs/breedings as well. I am sure that at one point there is going to be one of the show dogs/get a FC and at that point is that dog no longer a show dog? Or is he no longer a Field dog cause he is a CH?

Thank You Leah and Cindy for your knowledge.

[Windkist]

Take your hound out on rough or plowed ground and throw your bone for him, or have a friend call him across the field. See if he fumbles or faulters crossing the plow or running down hill cross the rough, doesn't seem to flow cross ground with ease. This is the test for your angle and balance. muscling being loaded, length and other inhibitors will show in lack of long duration... I am a poor enough judge and can only tell by seeing hounds in action "galloping" over time

Patch I respect what you are saying. This is how I evaluate conformation most of the time (not in a plowed field) but, moving about my yard which is almost like a plowed field due to dog holes! LOL Watching a dog carry itself without the aid of someone stacking it or having it on a lead is the best way to evaluate its strengths and weakness' as far as structure. I can spend hours watching puppies run and play.

patch.. you are one in a million! I love hearing what you have to say ;-)

Thanks TC!!! I love these boards! I probably spend more time here now than reading about showbeagles ;-)

Leah

[S.R.Patch]

Take your hound out on rough or plowed ground and throw your bone for him, or have a friend call him across the field. See if he fumbles or faulters crossing the plow or running down hill cross the rough, doesn't seem to flow cross ground with ease. This is the test for your angle and balance. muscling being loaded, length and other inhibitors will show in lack of long duration... I am a poor enough judge and can only tell by seeing hounds in action "galloping" over time...
Hounds hunted days in a row will show their weakness whether in body, spirit or hunting gifts. Anything short of this, is an incomplete evaluation as to the beagle and the breed purpose...imho

Remember, conformation is only needed to be "adequate" or at the required level, to carry the nose and the headfull of "rabbit sense" of the hound in pursuit of the game until shot, caught or holed, this being done for a full day, for a number of days ..any nitpicking at perfection in conformation, over regard towards hunting quality is going backwards as to the breed and it's intended purpose...ajmho
Alas, the difference between owners and their charges that hunt and owners that only compete the show hounds...To me, what a sad day to have the perfect conformation in a beagle that wouldn't hunt or lacked the unseen gifts needed to fulfill it's purpose...

Awe but SR PATCH You forget, we do hunt rabbits and run our dogs in the field, we are just trying to discuss conformation issues and what we have seen that cause/hamper their ability while in the field. Yes Leah and Cindy are strictly Show competition, however I do both. I might not be as high up on the ladder as they are or the top FC folks, however I feel that the build is important. The dogs are atheletes not actors, there for we must to get a structure view of what is helping/hendering what we are trying to achieve. Yes watching them in the field does give proof to the pudding, have seen it myself. But whos to say that maybe that dog that is not as good in the field because of her build should maybe not have had a CH put on her. I have also seen the ones that need some serious conformation help not do so well too.

Like Leah stated if the muscle / and frame isn't built to carry the load it expends more energy doing exactly the same thing that a well built hound would expend less energy and have more stamina and less aches and pains by the end of the day.

If we aren't willing to look at this with an open mind then we are back at square one.

At least Leah and Cindy are offering us information and the experience they have that would take us eons to get. There is so many breeders on the other side of the fence you wouldn't get this help from. If they are willing to help me then I am all ears and will listen and try and learn all they are willing to teach me for I am definately no expert. Their specialty is in the conformation area and I respect them for all their hard work because showing is no cake walk believe me.

What WVBill, Thorney (bless his heart), Moorebeagles, myself and a few others are trying to learn is the proper structure, and we take what they give us and we will have to deciffer the information and interpret this information to mold it to our needs. Just like we do when we are on the field trials section. We take the information posted there and interpret it and use that information to better our dogs/breedings as well. I am sure that at one point there is going to be one of the show dogs/get a FC and at that point is that dog no longer a show dog? Or is he no longer a Field dog cause he is a CH?
Thank You Leah and Cindy for your knowledge.

What leads you but "proof from the pudding"? Is Coco without the dairy still pudding?
A beagle is what? maybe 28 lbs of a load total. It stands to reason that the greater the load, the more perfect the build necessary. I reason that show hounds are of enough good conformation to carry themselves through days of hunting, just as brace hounds were at one time good enough at hunting, but, both factions insist on taking it to the extreme at the cost of sacrificing the total package. Fads lead the way inleu of striving at improving the total package, insted of worring so greatly about the "stop", ear length & catfoot, why not include some bit of hunting instinct? just as the brace people deformed their hounds to promote their ssslooow"foot print tracking"(why, one with conformation might break waddle into a stride, now can't be having that).
My point being, one that succeeds at hunting hours on end and days at a time, can't be built far from wrong, but most importantly, if his sterling qualities at being a "rabbitdawg" are also shown while proving his metal, so benefits the breed and the hound for it's purpose...

[Windkist]

My point being, one that succeeds at hunting hours on end and days at a time, can't be built far from wrong, but most importantly, if his sterling qualities at being a "rabbitdawg" are also shown while proving his metal, so benefits the breed and the hound for it's purpose

Ok, gotta disagree here. There are plenty of poorly built hounds that will hunt hours on end. The reason they do it is instinct and heart. I've seen plenty of pictures of very nice looking (good conformation) hounds on these boards. I've also seen plenty of dogs that were butt ugly with conformation faults that render it in my opinion unsound and yet.. they run and run and run. Why not have both? Just as "WE" show people seem to focus purely on the looks of our dogs some hunters seem to forget that conformation and beauty are also a part of the package.

JMHO,

Leah

[S.R.Patch]

Take your hound out on rough or plowed ground and throw your bone for him, or have a friend call him across the field. See if he fumbles or faulters crossing the plow or running down hill cross the rough, doesn't seem to flow cross ground with ease. This is the test for your angle and balance. muscling being loaded, length and other inhibitors will show in lack of long duration... I am a poor enough judge and can only tell by seeing hounds in action "galloping" over time

Patch I respect what you are saying. This is how I evaluate conformation most of the time (not in a plowed field) but, moving about my yard which is almost like a plowed field due to dog holes! LOL Watching a dog carry itself without the aid of someone stacking it or having it on a lead is the best way to evaluate its strengths and weakness' as far as structure. I can spend hours watching puppies run and play.

patch.. you are one in a million! I love hearing what you have to say ;-)

Thanks TC!!! I love these boards! I probably spend more time here now than reading about showbeagles ;-)
Leah

I think a yard full of holes is fine for puppies to romp in, but, adult hounds need uneven grounds to gallop over to test balance and shoulders, just like hunting, you won't know till you ask all the hound will give you or is capable of. The best indicator of weakness to me, is found in the doing... like all hunters, the proof of the pudding is founded in the field...a young hound Championed at say 2 yrs of age in either faction has proven nothing of what he may confront over the long haul. A hunting hound is tested for a lifetime...
Leah, and don't think we don't aim to convert you over...

[S.R.Patch]

My point being, one that succeeds at hunting hours on end and days at a time, can't be built far from wrong, but most importantly, if his sterling qualities at being a "rabbitdawg" are also shown while proving his metal, so benefits the breed and the hound for it's purpose

Ok, gotta disagree here. There are plenty of poorly built hounds that will hunt hours on end. The reason they do it is instinct and heart. I've seen plenty of pictures of very nice looking (good conformation) hounds on these boards. I've also seen plenty of dogs that were butt ugly with conformation faults that render it in my opinion unsound and yet.. they run and run and run. Why not have both? Just as "WE" show people seem to focus purely on the looks of our dogs some hunters seem to forget that conformation and beauty are also a part of the package.
JMHO,
Leah

See last post...note life time of hunting...These hounds will break down early...if not...see not built far from wrong...note, the less required of a hound the more this may lengthen his usefulness...ie...walk a track...
Most hunters will tell you a hound running game without fault and seemingly without effort IS a beautiful thing...

[Beagled1]

My point being, one that succeeds at hunting hours on end and days at a time, can't be built far from wrong, but most importantly, if his sterling qualities at being a "rabbitdawg" are also shown while proving his metal, so benefits the breed and the hound for it's purpose

Ok, gotta disagree here. There are plenty of poorly built hounds that will hunt hours on end. The reason they do it is instinct and heart. I've seen plenty of pictures of very nice looking (good conformation) hounds on these boards. I've also seen plenty of dogs that were butt ugly with conformation faults that render it in my opinion unsound and yet.. they run and run and run. Why not have both?

I have to agree 100% with Leah ... I don't consider myself a show breeder at all, because I'm simply not - I'm a rabbit hunter before anything else, and all my hounds are rabbit hunting dawgs. That said I do have some show bloodlines mixed in w/ the field and one show Ch. bitch.

Last year I lost a good bitch who had more heart, more desire, more rabbit sense, line control and a competitive spirit. I'd trialed her a few times in SPO and I think she could have made FC. She was VERY poorly built, since she did have some brace lines. She was one of the best I ever had but was just a mess when it came to stamina. If I ran her more than a few hours or two days at a time she would be near crippled the next day, and would stay that way for a few days. That's not my idea of anything that will do much for the breed, or the rabbit hunter.

Now I do have field bred dogs that were bred with conformation as one of the main objective, and they have everything it takes to make a true gun dog but also have the proper conformation to be as efficient as possible. I can run them for days on end and they don't get sore.

OTOH, I also have properly built show breeding or bloodlines that DO have field ability in varying degrees and have no problems with stamina, either. I honestly don't see why field and show can't be the same thing Wonder if anyone can tell me from their pics, which of these hounds are show & which are field bred? Are they all show bred? They ALL hunt, and every one is a top notch rabbit dawg, btw.

[Windkist]

I think a yard full of holes is fine for puppies to romp in, but, adult hounds need uneven grounds to gallop over to test balance and shoulders, just like hunting, you won't know till you ask all the hound will give you or is capable of. The best indicator of weakness to me, is found in the doing... like all hunters, the proof of the pudding is founded in the field...a young hound Championed at say 2 yrs of age in either faction has proven nothing of what he may confront over the long haul. A hunting hound is tested for a lifetime...
Leah, and don't think we don't aim to convert you over

Wish I had a place like that Patch but, I just don't. If I turned my hounds loose in a field they'd be dead after they ran into the road around here and probably lost too. Nothing now but, subdivisions upon subdivisions.. How times have changed!

Leah

[thornie]

Leah,theres 2 choices I could give you. You could move closer to Patch and me or just send them to us fro their field trialing and once we have finished them, then you can start showing them.

[thornie]

Leah, here's two options, move closer to myself and Patch or send them to us for their field trialing and then you can take them to the shows after.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

What WVBill, Thorney (bless his heart), Moorebeagles, myself and a few others are trying to learn is the proper structure, and we take what they give us and we will have to deciffer the information and interpret this information to mold it to our needs. Just like we do when we are on the field trials section. We take the information posted there and interpret it and use that information to better our dogs/breedings as well. I am sure that at one point there is going to be one of the show dogs/get a FC and at that point is that dog no longer a show dog? Or is he no longer a Field dog cause he is a CH?

Thank You Leah and Cindy for your knowledge.

Hey THANK YOU GUYS that CARE! I wish there was enough time in one lifetime to do both together. There just isn't in most of our cases and you have to put your priorities where your passion lies since we have such a short time here to devote to the breed. You can bet both Leah and I get thrills watching our beagles run, even if they are only chasing eachother, or the squirrels, or the cats

And there are a lot of Beaglers that do manage to do both (breed hunt & handsome looks) pretty darn well, including several of you all and Hal davis, Kathleen Carling, The Bobbits, Sundown Bros., etc., you know who you are and I know I left a bunch of you out...my cap is off to you