Not a lot of running on crust, dry powder is pretty much the norm although the hares pack down their bunny trails, making some of the run manouverable to a degree. The conditions here are alot like what you experienced on Drummond except probably a good deal colder most of the winter. If conditions like that were the exception not the rule I think I too would lay blame on the weather, but its the norm here and after a while you come to realize you just lack dog power.bluegrass wrote:I can very well imagine that in your area the hare do turn much earlier than even in the UP of Michigan...you probably get a crust to run on earlier than we do here as well...the quality of running I believe was related to the conditions, not the quality of hounds. I can see where it CAN be a reflection of the hounds but I don't think this was the case...I did notice how much trouble even the hare had in getting around in some areas...there was just a very thin crust which the hare could run on top of most of the time and the hounds could not. But one of the wabbits I shot was pushing snow when he moved as well, not really able to run on top in all areas. I suppose if I lived in an area where I HAD to hunt these conditions I wouldn't have been very shocked at our hunt, but we don't as a rule hunt these types of conditions very often. That much powdery snow usually keeps this translated southern boy in the house!!!
As for Kurt....nah, I'm done with his smugness.
BTW, some of these same hounds were on the island last year in early October when everything was still very green and thick, and the hare were very much brown with just the tops of their back feet starting to turn white, and our dogs were very seldom NOT barking on wabbits...we had them hunt in rain and shine, and they didnt get very many breaks. The running was excellent, although there werent very many killed that time either.
Good running to you,
Tony
Drummond Island Hunt: Pictures Added
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
It's not that life is short......it's just that we're dead for such a long, long time...
“the quality of running I believe was related to the conditions, not the quality of hounds.”
I have to respectfully disagree with this statement, I think it’s a mistake to blame conditions and overlook the part the hounds played. While I admit that if you only run in those conditions once a year, it really doesn’t matter how well your hounds do in them.
But for those that run in even more extreme conditions all winter long, it really serves no good purpose to give the dogs a free pass all winter long and continually blame the conditions. In the conditions you where dealing with on Drummond, it is my opinion that the quality of running was dictated by the dogs.
If one dog would have pounded for the whole trip like he/she was on sod, would he/she have been credited for being above average or just lucky?
I have to believe that there are dogs who can run in conditions others would think impossible, or I may as well give it up?
And to answer your question about how does a 13" handle the deep snow, well they don't. Nor do the 15" at times, which is why for some a snow hound has to be 15" or bigger if needed
I have to respectfully disagree with this statement, I think it’s a mistake to blame conditions and overlook the part the hounds played. While I admit that if you only run in those conditions once a year, it really doesn’t matter how well your hounds do in them.
But for those that run in even more extreme conditions all winter long, it really serves no good purpose to give the dogs a free pass all winter long and continually blame the conditions. In the conditions you where dealing with on Drummond, it is my opinion that the quality of running was dictated by the dogs.
If one dog would have pounded for the whole trip like he/she was on sod, would he/she have been credited for being above average or just lucky?
I have to believe that there are dogs who can run in conditions others would think impossible, or I may as well give it up?
And to answer your question about how does a 13" handle the deep snow, well they don't. Nor do the 15" at times, which is why for some a snow hound has to be 15" or bigger if needed
If conditions like that were the exception not the rule I think I too would lay blame on the weather, but its the norm here and after a while you come to realize you just lack dog power.
Sounds vaguely like the insult that Kurt was slinging towards us...lets end it with this...I run my hounds on cottontails 99% of the time. Hunting hare is a luxury for me. If I am going to hunt both, I have to keep hounds that will do both but they will be primarily cottontail hounds. Sounds like you do not hunt cottontails very often, but if you came down to my neck of the woods and your hounds didnt exactly perform like mine would, I certainly would NOT insult you or your hounds saying you lacked "dog power".
Tony[/quote]
Sounds vaguely like the insult that Kurt was slinging towards us...lets end it with this...I run my hounds on cottontails 99% of the time. Hunting hare is a luxury for me. If I am going to hunt both, I have to keep hounds that will do both but they will be primarily cottontail hounds. Sounds like you do not hunt cottontails very often, but if you came down to my neck of the woods and your hounds didnt exactly perform like mine would, I certainly would NOT insult you or your hounds saying you lacked "dog power".
Tony[/quote]
Bluegrass, sounds like you had a memorable hunt and that is what matters more than anything. The reason you are getting some flack from some of the northern houndsmen is because you described conditions that we think are pretty good and then called them horrible.
I get all excited when I see fresh snow falling. If the temp is above zero it really puts me in a good mood. Fresh snow holds scent very well, the warmer the better. The only downside (as you discovered)is that when the snow gets deeper it slows the dogs down and it makes it tough for the second place dog to get any scent. In general, the older the snow and the lower the temp, the harder it is for a dog to run a hare.
Another thing that kind of bothered me was the hare that was shot with no dogs involved. I'm sure you didn't travel all that way just to stock up on meat? There is nothing wrong with killing r-abbits and you didn't break any laws, still it just kind of seems wrong to me. But that's my problem. It's not my place to tell you or anyone else what's right or wrong.
Thanks for sharing your pictures and hunt, and don't let people like me ruin it for you
I get all excited when I see fresh snow falling. If the temp is above zero it really puts me in a good mood. Fresh snow holds scent very well, the warmer the better. The only downside (as you discovered)is that when the snow gets deeper it slows the dogs down and it makes it tough for the second place dog to get any scent. In general, the older the snow and the lower the temp, the harder it is for a dog to run a hare.
Another thing that kind of bothered me was the hare that was shot with no dogs involved. I'm sure you didn't travel all that way just to stock up on meat? There is nothing wrong with killing r-abbits and you didn't break any laws, still it just kind of seems wrong to me. But that's my problem. It's not my place to tell you or anyone else what's right or wrong.
Thanks for sharing your pictures and hunt, and don't let people like me ruin it for you
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patsmichbeagler
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:40 pm
- Location: lapeer mi
I have been reading this post and what I'm reading here is that the conditions that bluegrass had were not good for his hounds. Nor what size dogs do you run 13" 15" or bigger. Sav your dogs are conditioned to run in your area. Bring a dog up from Alabama in January to Mich and I would think that dog would have a hard time no matter how good that hound is. Not that I think my hounds are great but they would look bad in 20" of fluf. But after some time working in those condition I'm sure they would get better. And look bluegrass learned something also not to run the full pack in those conditions and because of his post I learn that also. So in conclusion Bluegrass has good hound for his normal conditions Nor and Sav have theres and kurt your still a little cocky but I'm sure your dogs are good also
HUNTING WITH BEAGLES A WAY OF LIFE, MY WAY ANYWAYS
Tom, one of our hunters doesn't own any hounds and doesn't share our excitement of the chase more than the kill...I think he just went off to try and prove he could stalk one without the dogs. Not my cup of tea, but he paid his share of the house and like you said, it is legal. If the politics of running dogs on game continue to change, we may ALL have to learn to stalk hare!!!
As for the conditions, they might be ideal for those that run all the time in deep snow, fresh powder and the like...I suppose I should have stated that for US, they were lousy. I guess the thing that has gotten me the most riled up is when I think my hounds are getting insulted. All our hounds gave it their all up there and my little female just ran out of gas on the last hunt, conditioning problem for sure and my fault, not hers. If you guys have the hounds to hunt in those conditions, more power to you. I just dont understand why I have to be told that I lack "dog power", in effect insulting the hounds I keep. I wouldn't dream of telling someone from Kentucky or Tennessee that if they had hounds that couldn't run in 8 inches of snow as well as mine can that they lack "dog power". I think people keep dogs for the conditions and area they hunt, so why would those northern hunters consider my hounds inferior to theirs??? Sounds very smug and insulting to me...thats why I have responded the way I have.
And, SAV, you did admit that if we only hunted once a year in those conditions then it didnt matter if they performed in them. Thanks for that insult as well...God you guys are conceited. You try to give your opinion when you werent even there and state that "if one dog ran like it was on sod"??? What part of physics don't you understand??? A dog on sod runs on solid ground, he or she doesnt fall into holes and have to climb back out. But that is what our hounds had to do on every hare they ran...fall into the snow, climb back out and run til they fell again, climb back out, etc...
Tony
As for the conditions, they might be ideal for those that run all the time in deep snow, fresh powder and the like...I suppose I should have stated that for US, they were lousy. I guess the thing that has gotten me the most riled up is when I think my hounds are getting insulted. All our hounds gave it their all up there and my little female just ran out of gas on the last hunt, conditioning problem for sure and my fault, not hers. If you guys have the hounds to hunt in those conditions, more power to you. I just dont understand why I have to be told that I lack "dog power", in effect insulting the hounds I keep. I wouldn't dream of telling someone from Kentucky or Tennessee that if they had hounds that couldn't run in 8 inches of snow as well as mine can that they lack "dog power". I think people keep dogs for the conditions and area they hunt, so why would those northern hunters consider my hounds inferior to theirs??? Sounds very smug and insulting to me...thats why I have responded the way I have.
And, SAV, you did admit that if we only hunted once a year in those conditions then it didnt matter if they performed in them. Thanks for that insult as well...God you guys are conceited. You try to give your opinion when you werent even there and state that "if one dog ran like it was on sod"??? What part of physics don't you understand??? A dog on sod runs on solid ground, he or she doesnt fall into holes and have to climb back out. But that is what our hounds had to do on every hare they ran...fall into the snow, climb back out and run til they fell again, climb back out, etc...
Tony
........you need to chill out brobluegrass wrote:If conditions like that were the exception not the rule I think I too would lay blame on the weather, but its the norm here and after a while you come to realize you just lack dog power.
Sounds vaguely like the insult that Kurt was slinging towards us...lets end it with this...I run my hounds on cottontails 99% of the time. Hunting hare is a luxury for me. If I am going to hunt both, I have to keep hounds that will do both but they will be primarily cottontail hounds. Sounds like you do not hunt cottontails very often, but if you came down to my neck of the woods and your hounds didnt exactly perform like mine would, I certainly would NOT insult you or your hounds saying you lacked "dog power".
Tony
I was referring to MY dogs not yours It's not that life is short......it's just that we're dead for such a long, long time...
"Well, I debated on whether to open a discussion on our recent trip to the Island for a while, so here goes... "
Seems you where looking for a fight right from the get go?
Yeah yeah your dogs had to swim, their teats may have froze, it was cold (not really -36C here this morning) get over it, it's called every day running to some, sorry if you think you experienced North Americas worst running conditions in centuries, but you didn't. You can open your eyes and see some have more experience on this topic than you or you can keep looking for insults and not learn a darn thing.
But like I said for someone who never hunts these conditons but for once a year, I can't see how it matters much?
I don't care how well my hounds can run a desert jack rabbit in Iraq either??
You still haven't answered my question though, if it was conditions soley that dictated the running, how would you explain it if one hound pounded while the others couldn't?
Seems you where looking for a fight right from the get go?
Yeah yeah your dogs had to swim, their teats may have froze, it was cold (not really -36C here this morning) get over it, it's called every day running to some, sorry if you think you experienced North Americas worst running conditions in centuries, but you didn't. You can open your eyes and see some have more experience on this topic than you or you can keep looking for insults and not learn a darn thing.
But like I said for someone who never hunts these conditons but for once a year, I can't see how it matters much?
I don't care how well my hounds can run a desert jack rabbit in Iraq either??You still haven't answered my question though, if it was conditions soley that dictated the running, how would you explain it if one hound pounded while the others couldn't?
I've tried to make reason of all this, and all I can figure is, there's a hobo along side the track of a slow moving train and he's jumped aboard to proclaim his fame as to being a world traveler...
We've been on Drummond the last four Decembers and never had anything close to this degree. A couple years ago there was a three day, hold on to your hat, 40mph wind that blew snow sideways and amazingly hounds were always running hare but, they were constantly getting lost from eachother and us. This was one where I got, "I'll never come back up here" from a couple of my buddies...
So, climb on board Kirk, for you the ride is free...
Tony, can you give norwester a leg up, he wants to ride also...
Now, I know you tuff guys won't believe this one but, there are actually days when there isn't snow up to the hounds chins and they still can't circle a rabit...hows that for a bunch of culls...
sav, it is true. No hound ran like on sod cause they were over their heads in snow. Hounds did move the hare but it was not pretty and the snow caving in on track and hound was no help. It serves no purpose to argue back and forth when you weren't there and we couldn't compare what our hounds couldn't do with what you say your hounds can. It is a cheap shot to sit behind a computer and analyze scenting conditions and hound ability or quality that you didn't see or have anything to compair with, and this only reveals your true intent.
To me, it sounds like your trying to turn a ruff time running others had, into a sale add for your hounds without them never having been there to show that day they could perform...
You guys are a hoot...
We've been on Drummond the last four Decembers and never had anything close to this degree. A couple years ago there was a three day, hold on to your hat, 40mph wind that blew snow sideways and amazingly hounds were always running hare but, they were constantly getting lost from eachother and us. This was one where I got, "I'll never come back up here" from a couple of my buddies...
So, climb on board Kirk, for you the ride is free...
Tony, can you give norwester a leg up, he wants to ride also...
Now, I know you tuff guys won't believe this one but, there are actually days when there isn't snow up to the hounds chins and they still can't circle a rabit...hows that for a bunch of culls...
sav, it is true. No hound ran like on sod cause they were over their heads in snow. Hounds did move the hare but it was not pretty and the snow caving in on track and hound was no help. It serves no purpose to argue back and forth when you weren't there and we couldn't compare what our hounds couldn't do with what you say your hounds can. It is a cheap shot to sit behind a computer and analyze scenting conditions and hound ability or quality that you didn't see or have anything to compair with, and this only reveals your true intent.
To me, it sounds like your trying to turn a ruff time running others had, into a sale add for your hounds without them never having been there to show that day they could perform...
You guys are a hoot...
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patsmichbeagler
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:40 pm
- Location: lapeer mi
Patch, dude, you are way off base....
Wow guys you are all a little touchy about this, no?
For some running in those conditions is a daily affair, I guess with that comes the ability to cut through the crap or else we will never have hounds that can get it done in these conditions. The way I see it there are 3 choices:
1) Blame the weather, no dog could run in this.
2) Whine about it, keep dogs that can't get the job done because of the weather
3) Believe there are hounds that can get it done, don't accept excuses and work toward building a better pack.
BTW I'm at choice 3#.sav wrote:
Patch, dude, you are way off base....
Wow guys you are all a little touchy about this, no?
For some running in those conditions is a daily affair, I guess with that comes the ability to cut through the crap or else we will never have hounds that can get it done in these conditions. The way I see it there are 3 choices:
1) Blame the weather, no dog could run in this.
2) Whine about it, keep dogs that can't get the job done because of the weather
3) Believe there are hounds that can get it done, don't accept excuses and work toward building a better pack.
The funny thing about this whole thread, to me anyways, is that I haven't posted for some time on this forum because every thing you say gets taken out of context. My first post back confirms I was right
Isn't running hounds in snow fun!!!!
you guys are to much, getting after a man that comes up to the north gets a surprize snowing and it makes it tough on his southern hounds. so you tell him he has no dog power and you dont care if your dogs cant run a jacket wrabbit in a counrty over sea's. Yall are just to much he-he, tell ya what sav and boys from the land of snow and sabortooth hares ,I would bet a weeks pay check if you were to bring them long legged hare hound down here and cast them into the wall of briars I hunt in they would not go, and after you kick them in the bushes you would have to go in and retrieve them. I would laugh for a while but would not put your hounds down. Hope yall enjoy your rabbit season. ho-ho-ho he-he