All white beagles?

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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

Here are a couple pics of 13 inch AKC Show Ring Champions.

Image

This one was registered as a blue/tn/wh. (His dam was same color and also a Ch.) Genetics He is Lilac/tan/white. (Lilac is the same color as Weimariners. All Weims are bb/dd) His color genes are bb/dd/EE He was also TT for ticked. (Virtually all beagles are ticked, rare one is tt for NO ticking)

Image

This one was registered as Brown/Tan/White. (Her dam was also Brown/Tan/White) This was a very nice 13 inch bitch that finished her Ch very easily. Most would call her a liver, red tri, Warfield Red, Auburn Red or the correct term from genetics a chocolate/tan/white. (AKC are not color experts and certainly know next to nothing about what colors there are and the true genetic make up of same. They use the same miss used terms as most of the general public.) Her color genes were bb/Dd/EE. She was also had ticking and therfore was TT. The lower case d for the second gene in dilution indicates she carried the dilution recessive that produces blue when it dilutes black or lilac when it dilutes the chocolate. Eye color goes with the primary color, thus slight lighter eye for dilutes (blue, lilac) and for the double recessive chocolate.

Of the two beagles the bitch is by far the better of the two although I would like to see a bit more leg and air under both of them. (Hard to get in a 13 inch or under package.) The male was very smooth but was weak in the rear. Narrow between the hip points, short on rump, etc. I do not like the bit of flew covering the lower lip on the bitch and she could have been a bit closer coupled with a bit more shoulder,layback. (None are ever perfect.) Out of the 15 points he got one by beating another male, all the rest came from Best of Winners (in other words he beat the all the girls or in one case specials to get his majors and other points.) In his whole show career only twice was there another 13 inch male entered. Won one, lost one.

Dr.Berndt know s field dogs. LOL He got out of beagles even before the first AKC SPO trial was held. The only field beagles he was probably around would have been AKC Brace (walkie-talies,peanut rollers). He was from Springfield, MO, same place as G. Nixon and Pearson Creek brace stuf.) My wife kenneled Ch and Best in Show Beagle RJB Dierk for awhile in late 70's. Berndt sold to Busch. Busch (Pro handler and at that time bred some beaqles.) Busch GAVE dog away for a Jr Handler dog. He did the breed a favor and died in a Handlers Truck fire in Florida the winter after my wife boarded him in her kennel. There was a reason Berndt, a vet, got out of beagles when he did. My wifw bred a litter from Dierk. Sold them all. Nuff said.

Leah and Cindy are able to pick out what can win in the current AKC Showring, but that is far different than actually knowing or being able to pick out a properly built hound that could fullfill the traditional function of the breed. They both need a bunch more experience, IMHO. (How many show beagles actually have a "slighjt arch over the loin, good length of upper arm, a moderate tail set, a muzzle FREE of FLEWS (you should be able to see both top and bottom lips.), most are over bodied, they do not have any air under them. Lack endurance. Too much bone. Look like little draft animals rather than an elegant thoroghbred built for speed and agility.)

SR Patch and Southern know exactly what I am talking about. A few years ago might have been a different story.

We have had blue and lilac hounds around off and on for over 30 years and I have yet to have one with any skin problrms. Manage is a mite. Effects dogs with poor immune systems. Nothing to do with color. Might be the line or the way they were cared for etc. I've got 3 blues at this time. One I've got a litter out of. I've also got Also have 3 chocolates. They are 7, 8 and 11. Blues are 9, 6 and 4. No problems with any of them. As far as alopecia in beagles. The only one I am aware of is Black Hair Folicle Alopecia. It is a recessive and does show up in some lines. I've got a couple examples, that were given to me by a breeder because the U of Mo Vet School was doing some work and I live about 30 miles from there. They are 8 years old now. Wash State did tests on plugs we sent them at thier canine dermatology lab. Unfortunely they did not tell us anything we did not already know. Just confirmed it but missed the black hair folicle diagnoises and just said alpoecia. All for just 150 dollars or so back in the 90's.

How many blues, blue-ticked, black-ticked, red-ticked, lilac, lilac-ticked, chocolate etc. hounds where there at National Speciality? I was not there but I'll bet the answer is zero. (If I could have gone there would have been at least one blue.) The National is hardly representative of the breed and that is a shame. The colors and patterns I mentioned have been part of the beagle breed as long as records have been kept. Showring fads and the fancy's tastes have done more damage to breeds than virtually anyother activity. (In beagles the AKC Brace trial did a lot more damage than even the showring. But they keep working on it.)

Nationals LOL. I was told a month prior who (not what hound) was going to have Best of Breed. The person that told me had a very good crystlal ball or was good at reading Tea leaves or..........

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Post by Windkist »

AKC should have a rule in place that prohibits any dog or bitch from attaining a championship solely by winning BOW over the other sex. Too many mediocre 13 inch dogs receive championships this way due to sympathetic judges passing the points. It happens way too much obviously! Its really not that hard to win a CH. when your buddies build up the points for you in the other sex..LOL

As for my knowledge of what a hound should be built like.. Your right Dan I have lots to learn but, I also have an open mind and hope that I continue to learn until I no longer walk on this earth.

Here is one I just finished at that crooked nationals even though I have NEVER shown to this judge before. She finished with all majors over tough competition. She defeated 47 bitches to finish her championship on this day. I hope she meets with your approval.
Image


Leah
Last edited by Windkist on Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

Enjoyed looking at the very light tan/wh hounds and also the white one. Her genetics is obviously the extreme end of piebald spoting pattern. Extreme, no spots. The black nose and dark brown eye indicate she is probably BB/DD/ee and is at the extreme end of the piebald spotting scale.(ee supresses the black blanket and the piebald spotting removes the tan. (Allbeagles are piebald spotted, amount of color goes form 100 percent to zero. White is not color.) Good to see. Posters are correct about Foxhounds. White is not uncommon in English, Am or Master of Foxhound Crossbrds. There are bunchs of pics around and I have some that I took at Central States Hound show of white Foxhounds. Also have a pic from UK of a Harrier pack with what appears to be several all white hounds and others that are very very light tn/wh. All hounds in pack are that color. 200th aniver in 1997. The Cotley Harriers. Alsoyou will see white ones in teh very few packs of West Country harriers that still exist. (West Country def. Cornwall etc. in England)

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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:22 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leah posted.
AKC should have a rule in place that prohibits any dog or bitch from attaining a championship solely by winning BOW over the other sex.

That does not make sense. Same standard and judges for both bitches and dogs. A rule like that is not logical.

A better rule would be no hound be awarded a Ch title until it had won at least one of its majors and one third its points after it was 2 years old (mature). Also no hound should get a Ch title until it had at least made second series at an AKC Field Trial. (Get the Show types to spend some money with Field Trial Handlers instead of just the show handlers.)

Leah wrote
Its really not that hard to win a CH. when your buddies build up the points for you in the other sex..LOL

Never having had that many (if any) "buddies" around the showring, I was wondering how it was done. Thanks for insight Leah.

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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

Leah, the pic you posted of the bitch. What is correct on her and what is wrong? Compared to Standard, how many points? 70, 75, 80, 85? What is she?

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S.R.Patch
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Post by S.R.Patch »

Lefgren-Lane wrote:Enjoyed looking at the very light tan/wh hounds and also the white one. Her genetics is obviously the extreme end of piebald spoting pattern. Extreme, no spots. The black nose and dark brown eye indicate she is probably BB/DD/ee and is at the extreme end of the piebald spotting scale.(ee supresses the black blanket and the piebald spotting removes the tan. (Allbeagles are piebald spotted, amount of color goes form 100 percent to zero. White is not color.) Good to see. Posters are correct about Foxhounds. White is not uncommon in English, Am or Master of Foxhound Crossbrds. There are bunchs of pics around and I have some that I took at Central States Hound show of white Foxhounds. Also have a pic from UK of a Harrier pack with what appears to be several all white hounds and others that are very very light tn/wh. All hounds in pack are that color. 200th aniver in 1997. The Cotley Harriers. Alsoyou will see white ones in teh very few packs of West Country harriers that still exist. (West Country def. Cornwall etc. in England)
Nothing is prettier than seeing the white hounds of the Glyn Celyn Beagles hunting over the hills of Wales... :D
The main thing being, they hunt like mad... ;)

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Post by Windkist »

Lefgren-Lane wrote:Leah, the pic you posted of the bitch. What is correct on her and what is wrong? Compared to Standard, how many points? 70, 75, 80, 85? What is she?
Oh Dan!! didn't ya know! I can't do that cuz I don't know nuthin bout structure of no beagle hounds.. maybe you should enlighten me!

What is she!!???? are you referring to size? doesn't matter what size she is. The beagle is one breed with 2 size varieties. They should look the same no matter what. I guess if you can't tell her size thats a good thing.

leah
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Windkist
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Post by Windkist »

That does not make sense. Same standard and judges for both bitches and dogs. A rule like that is not logical
Its very logical. Many 13in dogs become cheap champions by winning BOW and never defeat another male in competition. The judges just try to be nice and pass the points because they feel sorry for that one lonely dog! NOT in my ring! (of course I don't know enough yet to judge) ;-)

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SouthernBeagles
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Post by SouthernBeagles »

Leah! You have GOT to be kidding!!! Even a stupid field breeder like me knows what Lane-Lefgren is talking about! UNBELIEVABLE!!
Have you EVER read the standard???? Right at the end of the standard there is a point system to score your hound. Please give us a score on your hound based on the AKC standard NOT the show ring fad LOL.
I can post a score sheet if it would help you. ;) If ya like I can email you one for your computer so you can score your other hounds. You should keep in mind that a perfect beagle is worth 100 points making an average hound worth 50.
While you are at it, please score the chocolate bitch that lane lefgren posted. Keep in mind, there is nothing inthat standard for points or deductions on color. :shock:

Leah, I can pick that standard apart and explain to you how every body part effects the hounds movement or conformation in which conformation can cause injury (like flews or ears). Can you show me where color effects the running??
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Post by kybriarbuster »

what is a warfield red color? every picture ive seen of this dog and offspring are tricolor but many knowlegeable ? breeders advertise this as red dogs? just curious not trying to start anything.. sam

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SouthernBeagles
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Re: .

Post by SouthernBeagles »

kybriarbuster wrote:what is a warfield red color? every picture ive seen of this dog and offspring are tricolor but many knowlegeable ? breeders advertise this as red dogs? just curious not trying to start anything.. sam
Warfield Red was indeed a tri color hound but he did throw a lot of chocolates pups . When folks would see those chocolate hounds at the trials they would assume they were offsprings. This is how that color got its name in the hunting dog world, although the color had been around a long time before Warfield Red and is in many other bloodlines aside from his.
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Windkist
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Post by Windkist »

Leah! You have GOT to be kidding!!

Ya think!!??? :roll:
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SouthernBeagles
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Post by SouthernBeagles »

Leah, You are right! I do think!!! I think about that standard every time I breed two of my field hounds although I CAN admit my hounds are far from perfect ;). Can You???
Why dance around the request?? Haven't you been educating us on conformation?? Please score this hound and point out her faults so that we might learn something from you? :)
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Lefgren-Lane
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Post by Lefgren-Lane »

Oh Dan!! didn't ya know! I can't do that cuz I don't know nuthin bout structure of no beagle hounds.. maybe you should enlighten me!

Then how can you be a breeder if you are unabkle to objectively evaluate a hound? Are you totally dependent onthewhims and fads of the ring to determine your future? If so it isnot unusual. I had a longtime, very well known and sucessful show breeder tell me that they pretty much ignored thebreed stanbdard. Quote "have not looked at it in years", I want to breed what wins or is going to be winning regardless of what the standard says. you'd probavly be shocked who said that to me. The same thinking kind of thinking produced the AKC Brace Beaqle. "We do not care how they run as long as they win." Since you are unable to evaluate her I will be glad to give it a try from the pic. After I respond to the last part.

What is she!!???? are you referring to size? doesn't matter what size she is. The beagle is one breed with 2 size varieties. They should look the same no matter what. I guess if you can't tell her size thats a good thing.

leah

What is she refers to where she might fall in points if the "point scale" that is part of the beagle standard were used to evaluate her. Asking what she is has nothing to do with her size. 13 or 15 but with how you rated her confirmation. Since you cannot do that I will try to help you out.

First I would like to see her head be a bit larger for her size. Her muzzle is too short and she is NOT "free of flews". I can not see her lower lip. Ears and ear set appear good. Nice stop, and rest of head look OK. Like to see a bit more open eye and a bit rounder but hard to tell pics. Might be fine in person. Like to see more neck. She has a bad front. Her front legs hang off the front indicating a very short upper arm. Take a look at pic is very obvious. Very short length from point of shoulder to elbow and toooo straight. She is "pidgeon" toed and looks like
she might be a bit over at the knee. Her front pasterns are too vertical. Feet appear to be a bit toward the"cat" or "club" type which s incorrect. Her feet also appear to be a bit small for her size. The rears should
be about 60 percent size of fronts. Hers appear
to be a bit larger, probably because of her length. (Feet tend to be the size needed to support proportion of the hounds weight.) She carries a bit more of her weight on her rear because of her length. She has too much body depth for the length of her leg. Would like to see more leg under her. She is built to br a trotter not a galloper which is incorrect. Trotters have about 50 per cent body depth to to leg under body. Gallopers have 50percent or more. She is over angulated in the rear and probably a bit "cow hocked". (Her toes whenstacked are not under the base of tail but further back. She also appears to have a curve to the outside of

her stifle, thus pushimg rear hocks in. "Cow hocked" She is short on rump. (distance from point of hips to rear buttocks.) Pelvic angle does not appear to be bad. Overall she makes a pretty pic in the ring and well may have been the best bitch there that day.
My estimate she is probably about a 75 point hound, which is not bad since an average beagle is about 62 or so.

The 13 inch lilac male I had is about a 75 also. The chocolate bitch was about an 82. The best we have ever scored are about 90. Only been 4 or 5 of those in all the years and unfortently I did not own any of them.

Read the standard. What it says is what it means.

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Bev
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Post by Bev »

While we are scoring dogs, I'd like this one scored:

Image

Here's one with the background removed, so the shadow on the truck behind him doesn't give the appearance of a huge hump on his withers (lol).

Image

General Appearance
A miniature Foxhound, solid and big for his inches, with the wear-and-tear look of the hound that can last in the chase and follow his quarry to the death.

The above statement needs to be reflected in the way the points are awarded for each "body part". The whole thing must agree, IMHO.

I didn't breed this dog, but I was lucky enough to own him at one time. He is the most perfect true hunting beagle type to standard that I have seen. He's also a Grand Hunting Beagle Champion and a Grand Champion on the bench in UKC.

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