??? SPO Hounds???

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:10 am

Good question! I have asked old Fred many times why he won't speed up in good scenting conditions. Of course he does speed up a little bit but he seems to have a govorner in him. he simply will not over run no matter how hot the track is. He can push a rabbit good but with his great nose I know he could run it a lot faster but he won't. He is Mr careful and likes to keep his body straight. If he is working real tough one, he will back straight up if he goes over a little instead of turning around and going back. he throws great pups because he has an over abundance of all the things that keep a dog on the track. Nose, straightness and line control. 99% of his pups are much faste than he is but they still retain his line control and most of his nose and his straightness and extreme desire to not run over the end. He is a very inbred hound but you could never tell it by looking at him or hunting him. He is a very stout and slick dog fine hair and no signs of any inbreeding whatsoever. He is a special dog. I never had to teach him to lead and he never pulls on the leash. He will lead in front of you and vever tighten the leash and I never taught him any of this. it is that govorner thing he has I guess. he never rode in a vehicle until he was 7 months old and he just sat there on the floorboard and looked at me like he had been doing it all his life and to this day rides exactly the way same no matter how far or where we go. The fact is he throws terrific pups with his manners and steady outlook on life and they can cause a rabbit a lot of grief becuase when thay get hooked up it is a done deal. I guess this sounds like a stud ad but this dog is a special reproducer when bred to my females. I always thought he would produce some very good dogs but had no idea he would produce what he has. As to why he won't speed up on a good track all I can say it that it is genetic in him and he simply will not get crazy on a hot track. He is a once in a lifetime producer for me and I know I won't get another like him in my lifetime. the good news is he is only 3 and has lots of honeymoons left.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:44 pm

Bob: There is an answer to your question to Fred. IN fact he is showing you the answer. Just apply your good common sense and you will find that answer through your observations.

Don't worry about him being inbred. It's just an old wives tale that inbreeding negatively effects the hounds. Not a bit of truth to it and in fact how else would you set desireable traits without a bit of inbreeding? By definition a line breeding program has a bit of inbreeding in it and many times when breeding two line bred hounds it's actually closer breeding then it is to breed litter mates from out crossed stock. IN fact it is possible to have a vary close breeding of two line bred hounds from different families.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:06 pm

Don't recall saying I was worried about the inbreeding. Man where have you been. I did it in purpose to bring the bad and good out and get rid of the bad pups in the litter and carry on with the double shot of good. it was designed to do just what it is doing. That is why he produces good pups. He is prepotent because of piling on the genes y the inbreeding. Joe why do always assume that no one knows anything but you. I was inbreeding with a purpose more than 25 years ago. Glad to know you approve. duh! My family has bred livestock for over 150 years in the state of Iowa after moving to the Iowa territories in 1848. They came to America in 1733 which was about 50 years before the declaration of independance. My great great grandfather was the first blacksmith in this area and we have bred racehorses since the early 60s. My experience with inbreeding comes from actual experience and seeing the results many times of differant types of crosses and differant species. You know the old saying that those who can do and those who can't, teach. How many inbred litters have you had and how many species and how long have you been inbreeding? Thanks for the lesson! LOLOL

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:24 am

"He is a vary inbred hound but you could never tell it by looking at him or hunting him. He is a very stout and slick dog fine hair and no signs of inbreeding what so ever."

That's what you said Boob. Doesn't sound at all like someone who intentionally used an inbreeding to "set" a trait or traits. It sounded as if you were worried about his being the product of an inbreeding and I was trying to be nice but that is wasted on a knothead. INcidentally the answer to the question of why Fred doesn't speed up under better scenting conditions is contained in the standard.

laal · Post by **laal** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:47 pm

Joe best, It sure is good having somebody like you around if I could only bring myself around and do like you say and let all my rabbit dogs go and buy some from you I would know the meaning of all the rules you like to talk about, but untill that happens I will keep what I have as they are close to what I like.

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:01 pm

Guys, the bottom line is this. AKC does not promote the all around "hunting" hound like ARHA and UKC. They want style and speed over accomplishment and that does not help the "hunting" aspect in breeding. They do not really require search, even though they say they do and they expect a dog to keep the line right between their legs. You see what that thinking got us, walkie talkies. You can argu it all you want but that is the facts. Let a cast run 10 minutes or less and they make a judgement. That is wrong also. You can't possibly see what all a hound can do in 10 minutes. Impossible!! Period!!!

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:44 pm

laal: I don't recall offering you a hound.

Alabama Swamper: We are in agreement that the AKC isn't doing what they should be.

laal · Post by **laal** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:26 pm

Joe you sure did back when we were chating on spo, years ago you sent me to your page where I could look at a contract. You werent as a big a$$ hole back then!!

Think about it.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 7:57 pm

I said you couldn't tell he was inbred so as to show that it can be done. A lot of inbred dogs show weaknesses. I can tell by looking at them a lot of times if they are too close bred and it didn't turn out as good as we like. When I inbreed I am always looking for weakness as anyone should be. I am only interested in the ones that don't show some of the affects of inbreeding. It is a sign the parents weren't as clean as they should be and more close breeding needs to be done in another direction etc. When I say he shows no sign of it, I am saying that he is a fairly clean genetic animal and one that can be used to produce good pups. Of course he must have all the traits we need. A person could make 100 inbred crosses and I would say that 70 to 80 percent would be nothing but culls if they were truly tested in the breeding shed and culled by a strict standard. I feel lucky to have one that is good as even though a person tries to inbreed and keep a strain going, there will be a lot of failures if the truth is really known. Do you think I would take a double lineboss bitch and breed to a son of lineboss if I wasn't doing it intentionally? I was tightening the gene pool whether good traits or bad. I culled all but Fred as he was a clone of lineboss and a very very sound animal.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 5:49 am

Bob: That's the difficulty of trying to communicate in writing in only a short space. When we mean one thing but have to cut it back to save time or space it can change around to sound like something completly different to the other person. It doesn't help that our lingo is a bit different either. There have been many times on these boards where I've seen where a difference in terms have resulted in a perceived disagreement where none existed.

laal: when I disagree with someone on this or any board I don't bite my tounge but will say what I think. I do bite my tounge many times (but not always) when someone leaves the subject to get personal or just plain smart mouthed, to a point, and then I will give it back. I don't ever use terms like the one you used below though. If I use such a term I would only do so in person because I would expect the person I called such a name to give me a good punch in the nose. To my way of thinking it's just plain cowardly to speak to a person in those terms when they aren't standing in front of me even though I may beleive that is exactly what they are. You make yourself look vary poorly when you use such a term here.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:15 am

Folks, why keep posting with Joe( Know it all) West. If you don't agree with everything he says and kiss his a-- then all threads end the same. His true colors always comes out. He always reads things that are not even there and starts an argument about it. Plus he's going to have the last say just like my little 13 year old.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:58 am

I agree Joe. Emails and posts are a skimpy way to communicate. When you can't see or hear the person a lot is lost in the meaning.

laal · Post by **laal** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:43 am

Joe I'm sorry for saying what I did. Like yall have said a person can read what they want into what is said on these boards.
I should have said, I think you are very bigoted, and arrogant.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:21 pm

Man! I had to go back and make sure I was on the right thread! Turned into a "Peyton Place"

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:54 am

laal: I can see where you might think I am bigoted; I do defend my positions fiercely and I often had the same thoughts on many posters; But I assure you my thoughts on the hounds are not blind ones. As for me being arrogent all I can say is I do things intentionally (unsuccessfully it seems) so I don't come across that way. I know it's easy to come across the way I have to you when one defends their positions as fiercely as I do. That is why I never speak of my own hounds when posting but always speak in general terms or rarely give a hound name. There is always a danger when disagreeing with anyone that they will insert their own tones and inflections into the written word that will make it sound in a way that was never intended. If there are particular ohrases I use that makes me come across the way I do to you I would appreciate you telling me what they are. If it is mearly that we disagree so strongly there is nothing I can do except to ask you to read my posts in mono tone.

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??? SPO Hounds???

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