Size & speed

burbba · Post by **burbba** » Sat May 19, 2007 12:25 pm

interesting response. I was just responding that we dont watch the weather forcasts to decide to hunt or not. We go, and we run rabbits, rain, snow, sleet, ice, dust, wind... doesnt matter. Sorry, I should add, KILL rabbits so there is no debate about backtracking and cold trailing. Anyone who tells you the running is the same among weather is lying. I never said that.

I've run dogs with some "hot nosed" dogs when they couldnt run a darn thing. Put some bigger/stronger nosed dogs down, wow, there really are rabbits out here that run...

Run what you want, I'll do the same and I'll leave you to watch the weather channel.

Larry G · Post by **Larry G** » Sat May 19, 2007 2:40 pm

Burba wrote:
We run big nosed dogs, so weather plays zero/very little part in our hunting days.

Burba wrote:

Anyone who tells you the running is the same among weather is lying. I never said that.

Pick one, dude, but not both.

burbba · Post by **burbba** » Sat May 19, 2007 4:21 pm

Weather plays no role in whether we go or not, and we ALWAYS run rabbits. We can run rabbits when many people dont bother going. May not be the prettiest thing, but we can run and kill rabbits in any weather I've seen so far.

I never said weather plays no role in HOW the dogs run. Anyone who says running is the same is lying. And you can quote that one again.

I'm done talking about it. Steve B, if you dont believe or want to see the difference in nose, pick a day, and come on down. If we cant jump and kill/see a rabbit, after a full circle, on the worst of days, I'll pay your gas and buy your lunch for coming down. Shooter error not applicable of course!

Keystone Kid · Post by **Keystone Kid** » Sat May 19, 2007 5:08 pm

I usually run UBGF style hounds. But that really depends on the judges, and the club your running at. UBGF, Deep South & PBGA Club very somewhat.

In a 1-10 ratio scale, most of my finished beagles fall in around a 6-½ speed. Very few run just a 5-1/2 (medium speed). I do have one female that I categorize as a 7 speed, but she is overly competitive, and for that reason I don’t pack her with any of the rest of my beagles. My AKC field champion (FC Rad-Line Rocketman) will run up to a 7 speed in good scenting, but he is not overly competitive. I guess that’s why he is a FC (AKC field champion). I run Rocketman with my entire kennel of beagles 5-1/2 speed and up. As long as a beagle doesn’t “fight for the front” (overly competitive) I will pack them together.

THALL · Post by **THALL** » Sat May 19, 2007 6:25 pm

burbba wrote:Weather plays no role in whether we go or not, and we ALWAYS run rabbits. We can run rabbits when many people dont bother going. May not be the prettiest thing, but we can run and kill rabbits in any weather I've seen so far.

I never said weather plays no role in HOW the dogs run. Anyone who says running is the same is lying. And you can quote that one again.

I'm done talking about it. Steve B, if you dont believe or want to see the difference in nose, pick a day, and come on down. If we cant jump and kill/see a rabbit, after a full circle, on the worst of days, I'll pay your gas and buy your lunch for coming down. Shooter error not applicable of course!

I hunted 50- 60 day this last season. My buddy hunted (just guessing 100-120 days) last season. There was one day when the temp was about 15 and it was very dry and windy. This day the dogs would jump and get 2 or 3 barks and that was it. He and I both have one dog each that can smell a rabbit when nothing else can and neither could run. That afternoon when conditions changed we ran and killed rabbits. There is a point when nothing can keep a rabbit going, if you've never experienced these conditions you've been lucky. Most of the time "scenting conditions were tough" is used as a excuse to take up for poor performance, but once in a while there is a point that is next to impossable.

burbba · Post by **burbba** » Sat May 19, 2007 9:07 pm

i'll agree with that THALL. I've hunted in colder weather than 15, and done well. Just havent had the day when they couldnt run a lick. Seen plenty of rough days, but they could still get him around with a little extra work and few more checks.

Maybe I should re-phrase... our bad running days are much more limited than many, but we still go and still run and kill rabbits. Our poor days are days many other cant get a thing going. We run much more conservative and control minded dogs than many on this board. A good day for our dogs would be considered boring by many on this board due to speed. We run dogs in the 5-6 range based on jim's post earlier.

Scenting can be poor, and we can still run rabbits. Many times we've killed several and still said "scenting wasnt great". I guess its all in what the expectations are going into the hunt by the hunters. I dont count how many we kill, and could care less about killing 15-20. I want a good chase, even if its 5-6 cirlces before someone gets a shot.

Larry G · Post by **Larry G** » Sat May 19, 2007 10:12 pm

I ran this evening with a friend, told him about the "big nose" dogs that the weather, regardless of how severe, made zero/very little difference in how well they ran. He said tell the gentleman he is willing to pay $1,000 apiece for such dogs and will take all you have. Of course he wants to see them in action first. I told him that I also always wanted to see a jackalope alive, too, but so far never have.

burbba · Post by **burbba** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:15 am

First off, I wouldnt sell them for $1000 each. Was offered $1000 for one a few months back and didnt take it. Sorry.

If you want to just come see them run, come on. If we dont jump, run and full circle a rabbit on a day that fits both of our schedules, i'll pay for your gas and buy your lunch.

I NEVER said weather played zero in HOW they ran. I clarified it to say It plays zero in whether we go, and we always run and kill rabbits when others cannot. JEEZ! If you read my above posts I said they run different.

My original post was in response to the "sitting around watching the weather channel waiting for a cool damp day". Never done it, never will. We go when we go and we run rabbits EVERY time. Never been when we didnt when its been to a place we know.

Sometimes talking on this board is like talking to my wife! I dont care what people say or think, i know what we have and I know what they are capable of doing. Again, i'm done, have a nice day.

Larry G · Post by **Larry G** » Sun May 20, 2007 10:18 am

OK, Burbba has dogs that will circle one on ANY day.... anybody else make that claim? Come on now don't be shy... all it can cost you is lunch and gas money...and possibly some credibility, which ain't worth much on this board anyway

burbba · Post by **burbba** » Sun May 20, 2007 10:48 am

Larry G sure is fishing for SOMETHING. You've pasted different parts of my post, and misconstrued it several times.

One last time. 1. Weather plays no part in whether we go. 2. Our dogs seem to run rabbits when others said theirs couldnt run a lick. When I said it played no part in my hunting days, that means "WHEN MY SCHEDULE PERMITS, WE GO, AND WE'VE ALWAYS RAN RABBITS."

Thall said there was one day out of 50+ days last year his couldnt run. I dont hunt 50+ days in the season. I'm lucky if I get 1-2 a week. I also live in central Va and our bad weather days are very limited. The odds of it falling on a day I can hunt is even slimmer. We've had them, but none so far that the dogs couldnt circle a rabbit.

I'll stand by the gas and lunch if they cant do it.

TomMN · Post by **TomMN** » Sun May 20, 2007 11:08 am

I have had the best luck running fast dogs with good line control when the running gets tough. By fast, I mean that they can fly when conditions are good. Some days they have to get down to a slow walk. Rough, over running dogs don't work well in bad conditions. Usualy, the closer they can stay to the rabbit, the better they can run it.

I hunted hare up here in Minnesota every weekend last winter. Saw everything from 2 feet of powder snow, old hard crusty snow, to -20's below zero. At least some of my dogs were able to run a hare well enough and long enough to bring it back to the gun every day that I went. I'm not saying there won't be a day they can't run, just saying I didn't have one last winter. I've spent lots of time and money and went through lots and lots of dogs to get where I am, it hasn't been easy. Already spent plenty of lunch and gas money, don't much care about the credibility

Larry G · Post by **Larry G** » Sun May 20, 2007 11:45 am

There have been days when beagles can't run worth a flip, and there will be more. All scent hounds are affected by weather conditions to some degree, some much more than others. Some can trail a faint scent that others can't, and they are usually the slow, mouthy, coldtrailing type of dogs. Temp, humidity, wind, and the nature of the terrain all play a big part in how well the dogs can smell the quarry. Down here we have many hot,(95deg plus) dry, breezy days in the summer with very low humidity, lots of bare, rocky red clay and some very smart rabbits. Up there in Minn. you fellows have howling blizzards and subzero temps. I don't care HOW BIG you SAY your dogs' noses are they WILL be affected by these poor scenting conditions. To assert otherwise is to brand yourself as either one of little knowledge, or of little personal integrity, or both. Yes, you CAN hunt or (try to) run beagles in any weather, to say your dogs are so good they are immune to bad scent conditions is nothing new; I have heard it from BS artists all my life and there is no law against BS that I know of... if there was this board would be out of business pronto.

If you read the stud ads in H&H you will see how these dogs can run in any conditions, dust a foot thick, 40 mile an hour wind, 10 below zero makes no difference. It's what's called harmless trade puffery in legal terms. When you go watch them run at trial for field champions, though, it ain't like that... it's OK, boys, let's get em another rabbit!

TomMN · Post by **TomMN** » Sun May 20, 2007 2:09 pm

I don't see where anyone on this thread said their dogs were not affected by weather conditions Larry?

I've heard all that stuff about dogs not being able to run a rabbit when it is too cold or too windy or the barometer is not just right; and that you need a mouthy, slow, cold trailing dog to run on bad days and those dogs are no good any other time of year.

My problem is, I'm too stubborn or too dumb to believe it. I always have to see for myself, and I never was able to take no for an answer. If the season is open and there are rabbits out there then I should be able to find a dog that can run them.

What I found out was that those slow, mouthy, cold trailing idiots were still slow, mouthy cold trailers when the weather got bad. The ones I saw that could run the best on the worst days were also the ones that ran the best on the good days. They just ran the rabbit steady, without many losses, day in and day out. They had to work a lot harder at it when things got bad but somehow, they managed to get it done.

Seeing is believing, here is a short video of some of my dogs on a day last winter that most dogs could not run.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4749&hl=en

Notice there were 4 dogs but only 1 running? The other dogs can run just fine most days and some of them may get to the level of the first dog someday, but on that day there was only 1 rabbit dog down. Here is another video, same dog different day, better conditions, so you can compare how they run on good days and bad.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6666&hl=en

You may call this dog mouthy but you can't say she is slow. She does not open on a rabbit until it is up and running. Notice how far off the ground the dogs nose is on the second video? I guess many people would say this is not possible, so maybe this dog does not realy exist.

Next winter I will be out hunting and killing rabbits with this make believe dog and a few like her on those days when beagles can't run worth a flip. I don't know nuthin bout leagle puffery, never been to a trial for champions. I'm just a stubborn, dumb, rabbit hunter.

Larry G · Post by **Larry G** » Sun May 20, 2007 4:04 pm

Tom I believe you are running hare not cottontail, right? I think it is 2 different things, and our cottontail dogs may not do too good up there, and vice versa.

So we all agree that regardless of the size of the nose, the weather does play a role in how dogs do? I think it is undeniable.

Beaglers are known to trump up their hounds, especially stud dogs, with claims that cannot be substantiated, such as....

1) Sires big litters (size of litter is determined by the bitch when bred to any male with normal sperm count)

2) Throws mostly females ( it is always a 50/50 proposition)

3) Runs the same every time down no matter what ( anybody who believes that is probably dumb enough to believe the first 2 also)

Boardman is pretty cool, knows his dogs, and he started this thread because he knows that sometimes fast hounds can't get the job done as well as the more conservative type because of the scenting conditions.Why else would anybody want dogs like that. I think he also knows there is no such thing as a dog with a nose so strong that the weather has zero/very little effect on his performance, but I'll let him answer that.

I don't see how anyone could deny that the weather had a very profound effect on the way Riverbottom Rose ran the hare (walking one time, flying the next) and the others needn't even be mentioned.