AKC Show and Field champion

[marr24]

That list of labs includes 37 dogs I believe, really not that many condsidering this is ALL of the dual champs up to 1995. I don't believe there have been any since then. That's pretty much par for the course for all hunting breeds. While there may have been a decent amount decades ago, they are few and far between (or none in some breeds) in recent years.

[Larry G]

I'm not sure but there may be some dual champs in what are called the continental breeds of bird dogs too. It's a very hard thing to accomplish either and to do both with one dog is quite a feat especially since the show judging would appear to favor a slightly different type of dog than what is winning in the field. Let's take for instance the Black and Tan Coonhound. The show type and the field type don't look too much alike.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/blackandtancoonhound.htm

That's just the way it is and if you want to try to do both with your dogs you better pick a breed that lends itself to that end, or get used to being a good sport. That's the big reason some of the new registries are so popular, unlike the AKC a good dog has a good chance of becoming both a field and bench champion.

[Windkist]

Honey Pot or Windkist,

Do you paint your dogs' nails?

I know TC does, just wondering if all show people do. ROFL!

I have to check his dogs every time I see them.

No Mr. Al swamper do you? LOL Maybe you only do it in secret? LMAO!!!!

Leah

[oakhill]

I know for a fact that Rowdy favors PINK!!! Isn't that right, Swamper??? Just wait until you see your wedding present.

I see two different sets of standards in show and field. The show folks don't give a hoot if a hound can run a rabbit for which purpose it was bred.(Now TC and Jc, you two are the exception to the rule) Nor do they want their hounds to run a rabbit. Show hounds have beautiful conformation and look like one of those hounds you find on beagle calendars. That is fantastic but if these hounds look good and don't perform for which they are bred then it looks like to me show folks are defeating the purpose for which these hounds were created. Now I know there are those of you who do run your show hounds and I applaud you for that. But, if you go to a ring, does any judge even care that you hound can run a rabbit or even ask???

Now in the field I see many hounds that are train wrecks that can burn the hair off a rabbit. Have seen train wrecks run all day even though they have poor conformation. I would be the first to admit that some of my hounds have some conformation faults but give me those faults over a beautiful hound that can't run a rabbit. I don't have any train wrecks and some of my hounds look pretty good but they would be kicked out of a show ring because they don't look like those calendar beagles. Besides show folks don't like blueticks.

The complete beagler is one that strives for good conformation and breeds for a quality rabbit dog. JMO

[Dr Ed]

Look what I started! It was not my intentions to widen the gap between the people who show and those who field trial. Leah, I know for a fact that you have been friendly to field trialers and Parker has been bred to some quality field dogs(sundown kennels). That being said I think the biggest problem is time and money, it takes alot of both to produce a CH or FC let alone a duel. The point I was trying to make is that if you took a large enough sample of field or show dogs, you could come up with a champion since only about 15-20% of either type make the cut. Leah, lend me 10 show puppies to put in the starter pen I'll pick the best two and see if my theory holds water. lol

[Windkist]

If we lived closer I'd let you try out all of them ;-) There is not one gundog club here in utah. Not even sure where you could run dogs.

Leah

[Beagled1]

Besides show folks don't like blueticks.

The complete beagler is one that strives for good conformation and breeds for a quality rabbit dog. JMO

Now, on the subject of *some* show folks not caring for blueticks (because I actually do know or know of a few who like 'em) I've always been curious about one of the reasons why a bluetick would probably not do well in the ring. The unwritten rule about the white tip on the tail ... Does anyone know where that originated from? A few years back I had a nice (albeit long backed) bitch that I showed in the AKC 6-9 mos puppy class. She's heavily ticked, and I got into an interesting discussion with a fellow exhibitor regarding afformentioned unwritten rule. He claimed the tail's tip must be white so the hunter can see the hound in thick brush. That was news to me, lol. But I've always been curious as to where that "myth" originated from. Any of the show people know?

[TC]

Beagled1,
This notion came from the English Beagle Standard, and for some reason some people on our side of the Ocean go with the English Standard when it benefits their idea, and not when it don't....


It is listed in Crufts as Tip of the Stern White...
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/15

In the AKC standard there is not a single word mentioned of this so shouldn't be a demerit, it is personal preference..
'
As far as hunting, well lest just say most don't have a clue as to what they are talking about because they don't do it... Or they would know something about what they say... For one I haven't seen any beagles out in the field holding their tail up like a flag ship when hunting stiff as a stove pipe and you wouldn't see the white of the tail anyway as quick as they wag their tails when they get a hot rabbit.
'
Chalk that one up to another myth....

[TomMN]

One thing I have always wondered about is why anyone would want to have an AKC dual champion beagle? What do you hope to accomplish? What drives you toward this goal?

AKC shows have made breed after breed useless for what they were originaly bred to do. The beagle breed has fared better than most, so far. Does the AKC breed standard realy promote a beagle with the best hunting conformation?

Are AKC judges qualified to judge this in a beagle? I asume the lady pictured at the start of this thread holding the ribbon is an AKC show juge that evaluates beagles. I'm sure she is very good at what she does. How much time has she spent in the field hunting with beagles? Who taught her what is important in a hunting beagle?

I am a big believer in better conformation in hunting beagles. I am just not sure that AKC shows are the best way bring that about. Is an AKC dual champion a good thing?

[TC]

TomMN wrote

Are AKC judges qualified to judge this in a beagle? I asume the lady pictured at the start of this thread holding the ribbon is an AKC show juge that evaluates beagles. I'm sure she is very good at what she does. How much time has she spent in the field hunting with beagles? Who taught her what is important in a hunting beagle?

Are AKC judges qualified to judge this in a beagle?
Some are Some are not, I have actually Ran into a few who are beagle owners and have hunted to Some extent. Not as may as should be but a few still do...

Now as far as the lady in the pic holding the ribbon that is Mrs Pam Simmons and she is a UKC judge AND owns some very good hunting beagles and runs more than some on here. As far as being able to Judge the breed She has owned beagles For many years, Hunting beagles!!!!
she has studied the breed so I would Go with her Opinion Over Some that i have seen judge.

One thing I have always wondered about is why anyone would want to have an AKC dual champion beagle? What do you hope to accomplish? What drives you toward this goal?

Now as far as WHY on the Dual Champion!!!
It is just that Some of us would like to PROVE to the Beagle World or the factions of, that a Beagle is a Beagle and should be able to perform in the field just as well as on the bench. It has gone on for years the attitude that Show dogs caint hunt and Hunting Dogs cannot Show
WHY NOT they are the same dog aint they??????

Now for us personally We like to hunt trail and Show our Dogs
Why cant we do it all?
Why Shouldnt that Show dog be able to hunt Or trial? or that hunting / trial dog be able to show Why should they be divided?
We should be able to do it all instead of having just a dog that can show or one that can just trial.

Does the AKC breed standard realy promote a beagle with the best hunting conformation?

Well now thats a good Question!!! and I used to think So until you get personel preferences involved!!!!
But then again the AKC rulebook on trialing is Supposed to promote the better gundog Does it???
I used to think So! until peoples OWN PERSONEL Preference or interpretation of the rules come into play here is where you get your STYLES or little CLICKS Some of the Dogs that are placing in the AKC show ring today would not last 20 min on the ground with a good pack of Gundogs and Visa versa in the ring.just how many of them can run all day every Day?
I cannot say WHY others are doing it just Why we are...
As far as the Dual CH
Well I think our Motto says it best
No Division here!!!!!!

[Larry G]

I don't want no stinkin dual champion... but like you, Tom and you, TC, I do want a good rabbit dog that looks like what I think a beagle oughta. I see a lot at field trials that look like a pic of a dawg drawn by first grade kids.

[AlabamaSwamper]

ON the subject of dog prices. (I'm being serious)

It amazes me that no beagle even comes close to the dogs I visited two days ago.

Mountain Curs (old black bloodline, whatever that meant but apparently they have all but bred the black out of them) will bring $2500 at minimum at 12-15 months old and all they have to do is chase a squirrel up a tree. I saw a dog with every UKC and NKC title on paper that nobody I know could afford.

Now, for those that have never seen a Cur, they are ugly, don't bark on track (most don't) and eat a bunch of food.

Yet, they still bring $2500+ as treeing pups.


Folks, I may be selling out of beagles soon. LOL

[AlabamaSwamper]

And why I'm posting on this thread, I do not know!


Yes Southern, as you asked on your board, I am bored. The forums have no excitement for some reason.


Now TC, do you let those chineese (I know I didn't spell that right) in the mall do your dogs' nails?

Oakhill, pink and blue would be a good match you know. LOL

[TomMN]

Mrs. Pam Simmons sounds like a very good person to have judging AKC show dogs. No doubt people like her are the reason AKC show beagles are still somewhat functional as hunting beagles. Unfortunately, that can't be said for almost every other breed of dog that became popular in AKC shows.

I believe the only way anyone can know what type of conformation a dog should have is by studying the ones that are top performers at what they were bred to do; and what physical traits help to make them that way.

TC, you are right in thinking a dog should be able to hunt and show. We need people like yourself to make sure the breed standard reflects a dog that CAN hunt, and that judges put aside personal preferences (like the white tip on the tail) and follow that standard.

As for the field trials, that is a huge subect all by itself!

Swamper, what about the redneck coonhunters standing in line to buy $1000 coonhound pups! Just goes to show that BS sells!

[AlabamaSwamper]

TC, you are right in thinking a dog should be able to hunt and show. We need people like yourself to make sure the breed standard reflects a dog that CAN hunt, and that judges put aside personal preferences (like the white tip on the tail) and follow that standard.!

Ok, I'm still bored.

This is one thing TC promotes all the time. Show to field, field to show.

Even though they can't get any rabbit on Rowdy, I agree with him 100%.

Swamper, what about the redneck coonhunters standing in line to buy $1000 coonhound pups! Just goes to show that BS sells!

I'm not certain how you meant this. LOL I don't know anyone that would pay $1000 for a pup. I wouldn't, for any breed. Then again, I don't have $1000 to blow on a dog either.lol

I knew fiests around here (good ones) were pretty high. Saw a friend's grandad sell several trained fiests for $1000-$1500. Never been around curs except a guy that deer hunted with them and they were useless for that. Good scent dogs but no mouth. lol

I ain't saying curs aren't good, I would love to have a good one myself to squirrel and coon hunt with. However, I ain't paying $2500 or more for one. Not that they ain't worth it, I just don't have it. LOL