dog colors

[Andy and Gretchen Smith]

after reading the post "dog colors" I have to ask this. where did all the different colors come from and about when did the colors begin. the reason I ask is back in the old days 1960 when I got my first beagle there were only tri's that I know. well at least in Crawfordsville Indiana there were only tri's. we had two tri's and everyone we ran with or knew had a tri. I can't remember seeing anything else. I now have six r/w and two b/t. by the way I really enjoyed reading the other dog color post, it was interesting, informing and somewhat warm.

[YGD ( BUNNY BUSTER)]

I DIN'T KNOW WHEN THEY STARTED BUT IT'S BEEN AWHILE BACK.
IN THE 60'S I HAD ONE TRI & 2 BLUETICS & HUNTED WITH A
BUDDY WHO HAD A RED & WHITE.
BUNNYBUSTER

[S.R.Patch]

I think Mr. George Washington brought over some Blue Tic's, that's been awhile ago...

[Lefgren-Lane]

The actual source of the colors in beagles is probably lost to history,
and anyone saying it came form this or that place and time etc.
is mostly guessing or suggesting a theroy that is probably unproveable.
What we do kow is that in general most beagles in the 1800's
were more open marked (more white) than the general population is today.
We also know that there were blue ticks at least in the 1880's because Hiram
Card (Elora Beagles, nick name "Bluecaps") preferred this color and pattern
and suggested it was the only true hound color as far as he was concerned. Others had different opinions even then. The letters to the editor colums were their Q&A boards in the mags of the period. It is amazing how often the discussions today on so many subjects mirror our
own. Strong opinions and all.
The black blanketed hound has alwys been with us but really caught on
after World War One. It became very popular with beaglers, fanciers and
the public and has pretty much remained that way to this day,
at least in North America. So much so that the general public
virtually identifies a dog as a beagle by this black blanketed pattern.

The distribution of colors in beagles is determined by three genes.
They are the B (Brown) locus, D (Dilution) locus, and E (Extension) locus.
In each animal there are a pair of genes at each of these locus and
there are 3 possible pairings at each locus.
Ex. The uppercase represents the dominant, and the lowercase is the
recessive.
At the B (possible gene pairs are BB, Bb, and bb).
At the D (possible gene pairs are DD, Dd, and dd)
At the E (possible gene pairs are EE, Ee, and ee).

Thus 3 possible pairs at each locus and they can be in combination with any of the 3 at
each of the other two locus so the total possible is 3 multiplied by 3 multiplied
by 3 which equals 27 possible genotypes.

The 27 possibles break down as follows and gives the percentage distribution possible
in a random bred population. (To determine percent just divide each of the following
by 27)

8 will be black/tan/white,
4 chocolate (liver)/tan/white,
4 blue/tan/white,
2 lilac/tan/white,
9 tan/white which break down as follows:
(4 tan/white with black nose, black eye rims and brown eye,
2 tan/white with liver (eraser) colored nose, eye rims and hazel eyes,
2 tan\white with slate colored nose, eye rims and hazel eyes,
1 tan/white with very light slate eraser colored nose, eye rims and light hazel eye.)

The tan can range in color from
almost cream to a very deep red or orange tan color. The shade of the
tan and also the chocolate is affected by a group of genes called rufus genes. They are
polygenentic in nature and do not follow the single gene mode and
probability of inheritance.
Genes such as T (ticking), s^p (piebald spotting), wilding, pieing etc.
do not effect color, but do effect the mixture of hair, hair banding, the amount of and placement
of color etc.

The actual distribution of the colors, marking patterns, etc, accross the breed
are affected by fad, breeder selection, preference and often prejudice and misinformation.
In some venues (the AKC showring as an example) only a very small sample of the
total breeds true variation and wonderful variety are ever seen, while at field events (depending
on area trial type etc) the percent of chocolates, open marked , ticked etc. hounds
can often exceed the expectation of just random breeding distributions.
Too often the wonderful variety in the breed has suffered because of fads, prejudice etc.
both for and against certain colors, marking spotting patterns, ticking etc.

[Rosewood]

The breed standard says any hound color. I think I have seen just about every hound color exept one that looks like a redbone or a brindle colored plott hound.

[Lefgren-Lane]

Here is a web site to see some brindle beagles from Sweden. They are DQ for shows over there. It is the only info I have on brindle coloring in beagles from anypace inthe world. They have been known in Sweden for about 30 years or so. It would not suprise me if they were not th eresult of a mismating or a beagle to another breed. (I currently know of a litter of pups out of a black blanketed Am Foxhound Dam by a White Ibizan Hound) In the litter of 8, there are 2 pups that have brindle blankets and/or spots. Real interesting and good looking bunch of pups.

Oh yes the Brindle beagle web page
http://www.showbeagle.com/brindle_beagle.htm

[Lefgren-Lane]

Redbone beagles would require a differnet gene at he A locus. All beagles as far as I know and documented in the literarture are double recessive for a^sa, a^sa (saddle pattern) while redbones are A^s which is the dominant for solid colored.

[Bev]

Those are certainly striking beagles! I'm impressed with the amount of bone they have. I don't know what they're mixed with, but some of the beagles here could stand to be mixed back to that. Too much terrier has crept into some of these in the states. "Nature" (and I use that term loosely) has bred many beagles to be too light-boned and whippy. I like a sturdy beagle without being squatty - just a personal preference.

[Lefgren-Lane]

The pics of the brindles are of a mother and a daughter. For me they are not very good examples of the breed. For far better examples look at my avatar and also the one of SR Patch. Both of these are far better examples of the breed. The brindles have overdone heads (ovesized for their bodyand especially on bitches). They certainly are not free of flews and they are overboned for good endurance in a long drive. Compare them with the avatar of SR Patch. The brindles would not last running with Patches hound and I would not expect them to stay with the 13 inch male shown in my own avatar. A beagle is supposed to be a medium boned hound. The brindles are tackles, a good hound should be a wide recevier or at most a strong safety. Kind of like the difference between a good half miler or miler and a shotputter. Both good athletes, but bulit for far different tasks. Short legged, excess body depth and width, heavy bone, overdone heads are not assets to a beagle in the field. They are just excess baggage to carry during a long day and fast races.

[New York Hillbilly]

I have to agree that these so called Brindle Beagles are questionable? These hounds have the head, chest and body/bone mass that are Bulldog in appearance. My wife who has no experience with dogs of any type let alone beagles took a glance at these pictures. I asked her to come and look at the "pretty" new beagles I saw on the web and the first thing out of her mouth was "thats not a beagle it's a pitbull or bulldog crossed with beagle". Pretty good for a rookie I would have to say!!! I like Bev's term of nature being involved in a loose way and have seen it before in many so called beagles and bassets, beagle/ bassets, basset/ beagles, beagle/fiest, beagle/terrier. Not knocking it, only pointing out an observation. Breed, feed and keep what you want but be honest about it. Papers or no papers it's a very shady game much of the time, unfortunately. Sorry to be such a cynic! Take a look at the AKC or ARHA or any other registery and I would imagine the beagle breed standard is pretty close to the same in each. I could be wrong however as I only have copies of AKC and ARHA. The beagle "hound" is supposed to resemble exactly that , a small "hound". Not that it matters to anyone by my preference is to keep and raise beagles that look and act like beagles. Can a better rabbit hound be developed by playing around and mixing things up? I guess it could be done. But to try and then pass them off as beagles does is not only dishonest but does nothing for bettering the breed. In my most humble opinion!
Peace,
By the way, what started as a mini vacation from this site turned into an unexpected "time out" for me. My lap top was infected by some killer virus when I opened an e-mail and I can not fix it. I need to take it to a pro or to burn it! I am using the wifes computer right now and I will not be posting very frequently due to this arrangement. Just wanted to let you know I was not holding my breath till I turned Blue!
New York Hillbilly

[Bev]

To each his own, I guess. If I want a beagle built like a harrier, to perform like a harrier, I'll get a harrier. Dan, don't take that wrong, I'm not saying that yours and Patch's hounds look like harriers, they are nice-looking beagles. It's just that no one ever seems happy with a good thing - they want more of it - can't quit dinking with it, and it just seems that folks are continously trying to morph the beagle into something it isn't - on either end of the spectrum. They either want Gund Teddy Bears, or whippets with longer ears. I don't even like the looks of most of my own hounds, but there's not a lot of talent + looks out there to choose from anymore.

Kudos to the breeders to strive for both and trot them out in the field! The best artist knows when to stop dabbing at the painting.

[Guest]

Those brindle "beagles" look to be crossed with a pitt bull or a boxer. They seem to have the big jaws and the square head of a pitt bull. I could be wrong, but that's what they look like to me.

[Boomer]

The shape/size of the head of the brindle beagles in the photos is similar to many beagles I've seen before. I've seen plenty that were as blocky and stocky as these. Keep in mind also that I've been told that the brindles are only from a certain section of Sweden, and the Swedish beagle-stock could be vastly different than what we have in America. I'd like to see some more typical Swedish beagles and see how they compare. It also sounds like the brindle beagles could be from one particular line, so maybe that line coincidentally just happens to be thicker and saggier than usual. These photos are also of only two beagles and may not necessarily represent all of the brindle beagles that may exist/have existed.

I don't see pit bull or boxer in these beagles anywhere in recent bloodlines. Someone would've had to have worked long and hard to be producing dogs that look this much like a beagle with pit bull or boxer blood in them! Since the pics represent a mother and daughter, if the mother has boxer or pit bull in her and is bred to a pure-blooded beagle, chances are the daughter should look more like a beagle than the mother does since the daughter will be closer to being purebred. But with these two, I don't really see a difference.

If there weren't brindle there, I don't think anyone would look at these and assume they had pit bull or boxer in them. I don't know how common boxers and/or pit bulls even are in Sweden. Maybe there's another breed over there that can also be brindle. And different color schemes can play tricks on the eyes, too. The red and whites always seem to have a different shape than the tri colors when I look at littermates.

I guess we'll never know for sure, but it sure is interesting!

[NC Beagler]

I agree w/ NYH that a beagle is suppose to look like a small hound. I think its amazing how vastly different some beagles look. I personally like a beagle that has a very houndy look - and doesn't resemble a basset, dachsund, or terrior at all. What I really like is more along the lines of a small English Fox Hound than an American Fox Hound. The English Fox Hound is sturdier built (to use Bev's word). A lot of the American Fox Hound / Walker that I have seen look like they have been slimmed up w/ a little Grey Hound.

In regards to the football analogy - I think a beagle is more like a running back than a wide receiver. People say that dogs look like their owners - and I seen this to be true in many cases! lol I'd say I'm built a little more studier than a wide receiver - probably about like a running back.

[bob huffman]

Most of the Beagles in sweden have the same type heavier head, not just the brindles. Clearly a differant look than our dogs. It is more boxer looking than US dogs and a little looser skin. Seemed to have large heads and muzzles.