Measuring Hounds

[island ridge hounds]

hey hunter,
i think zuk said enough of why our hounds are marked at fifteen inches. i
would say that the men in those days were probably more educated than
you give'em credit and loaded with common sense. this is were i see the 15" come in unless the folks that turned the beagle to show hounds had
something to do with it, but don't you think it's all irrelevant what happen
that far back. arha spent a lot of time coming up with the rules that we're
to adhere to today. i know some of these men and they seem well educated. i personally don't mind running against a taller dog, but lets look
at these taller dogs. if you have a dog thats one to two inches taller i can
go along with that but now you have a dog thats six to eight inches longer and everyone should agree that our dogs are getting longer. i'm thinking
that length could be a problem for a shorter dog. so lets do something different lets just adhere to and enforce the rules for the organization that
we belong.
Buddy Wall

[Hunter]

These hounds have been bred alot longer ...

Was ARHA founded in 1870 or whenever the standards you are referring to were written?

No It is obvious that they just followed the leader.

Your discussion keeps swaying back and forth between what is done in England and what is done in U.S. Trial formats.
We are talking about trial formats and measuring and you are talking about an english breed standard written in the 1800's.

Breed standard is Breed standard. The Breed standard was determined when this breed was established.

Every trial format has been created in "recent times". The people who created the rules to go along with these formats applied what they felt was ideal for the format at that time. Rules are modified once they realize they have a problem. They selected 15" as the maximum height. They could have easily selected 14" or 16", they did not.
Someone along the line came to the conclusion that 15" was a maximum height for a beagle. More than likely the others followed suit because they agreed.

A friend of mine said what probably took place when they imported these hounds in the beginning was it just so happened that the ones they had were 15" and with the competitive nature of people was to make rules that benefitted them and their 15" hound. It is obvious in this thread people are inclined to insure they are not at what they preceive as a disadvantage. Like it was said these trials are won be recovering checks not running the front. Only UKC hunting beagle score based on speed and drive.

Some states have laws running dogs over a specific height. So you think the state researched height vs. effectiveness in rabbit dogs? No, they probably had a sportsman group help them with law is how 15" got there.

Yes that is a safe bet and they probably just followed suit without question as so many have and like yourself continue to do with out question.

15" is the currently accepted maximum height breed standard in America.
I can't give you a history lesson of why, but it is.

Well someone must be able to educate us with a logical reason instead of just keeping the same old, it is a rule speech. Basically all you have done in your post is act like the rest of us are one of your children saying because that is the way it is. If people accepted this type of answer for everything I would hate to see the state of things.

Bottom line is that ARHA LP maximum height is 15".
Running a dog over 15" is taking a risk of measuring out.
Yes, there are inconsistencies in the way dogs are measured.
The rule is there, the policing is there, and the enforcement is there.

Your Inconsistencies statement just puts the icing on the cake.
Even if you are convinced that this rule is perfect it is not worth a plug nickel.
Policing is a joke if you do not have a system in place to measure consistently the same every time.
Like you have pointed out not everyone will ask to have a hound measured so where is the enforcement you speak of.

jmo, Hunter

[SilverZuk]

Breed standard is Breed standard. The Breed standard was determined when this breed was established.

Not really, it was established when what ever group that recognized the breed wrote the standard. One in England recognized it as 16". The one's in America recognized 15". Just like there are differences between the UKC, NKC, AKC, etc.
AKC just requires that it comes from AKC registered parents. They can have an appearance that looks like a walker coon hound or Jack Russel, but it's a beagle because the papers say so.
NKC requires someone to look at it and say, "yep, it looks like a beagle"
UKC obviously requires conformation, which is good for the breed as a whole.

Yes that is a safe bet and they probably just followed suit without question as so many have and like yourself continue to do with out question.

You accept and move on unless you have a problem with it.
I have no problem with the 15" rule.

Why does one group that are not legal citizens of the U.S. get rights that U.S. citizens get?
Why do we spend millions on improving infrastructure in other countries when the roads around my house are broken and muddy?
Why do reward non-productive members of society for reproducing but penalize the working man for reproducing?

Basically all you have done in your post is act like the rest of us are one of your children saying ...

I was thinking the same thing about you.
I tried to keep the discussion relative to the ARHA format.
I don't know much about the other formats.[/quote]

Your Inconsistencies statement just puts the icing on the cake.
Even if you are convinced that this rule is perfect it is not worth a plug nickel.
Policing is a joke if you do not have a system in place to measure consistently the same every time.
Like you have pointed out not everyone will ask to have a hound measured so where is the enforcement you speak of.

I am stating simple facts that all of recognize.
The rule says 15".
The policing is the handlers at the casting stake.
The enforcement is the MOH measuring the dog and disqualification for violation of this rule.

I have not seen anything that shows how to officially measure a hound in ARHA. That needs addressed.
I have also stated that if ARHA were serious about measuring, they would measure the winners pack at each hunt.
I am not fond of rules upon rules.
If there is a problem, fix it - don't complicate it.
I like rules simple, easy to understand without a law degree.
So I am opposed to new rules that complicate what we already have and take more of our free time measuring 700 dogs at a big hunt. I have no problem with the current system.

BTW, I am not taking this personal, just a discussion on the internet.

[Hunter]

Why does one group that are not legal citizens of the U.S. get rights that U.S. citizens get?
Why do we spend millions on improving infrastructure in other countries when the roads around my house are broken and muddy?
Why do reward non-productive members of society for reproducing but penalize the working man for reproducing?

These things happen for the same reason I stated people just accept things the way they are. Nobody puts forth the effort to change it.

BTW, I am not taking this personal, just a discussion on the internet.

Hey what do you know, we agree on somethings.

jmo, Hunter

[TC]

The beagle breed standard was first applied in 1884 here are the standards as we know them......
This is how it is and the way it has been So live with it!!!!

OR patition the National Beagle Club and your representative to change it!!!!!

As soon as i can find it i have an article that was written about Why the standard was adopted the way it is...
If and when i find it i will post it......

http://clubs.akc.org/NBC/1884_1900_stan ... arison.htm

[jim horn]

i think if you look at most of the fellows who are running these over size hounds for the most of the time they are also judges they are into buddy judging or any way they can to cheat. they don,t have guts to run a legal dog this is the only they can win, in my book if you run an oversized dog or buddy judge and win you ain,t done nothing

[Pine Mt Beagles]

MR HORN
I THINK THE STATMENT ABOUT .HAVING TO RUN BIG DOGS AND NOT HAVING GUTS TO RUNLEAGLE SIZE HOUNDS .AND MOST PEOPLE WHO RUN BIG DOGS ARE JUDGES AND BUDDY JUDGE ,,IS A LITTLE HARSH .BUT I DON'T TRAIL MUCH AND DON'T HAVE BIG HOUNDS AND TO OLD TO JUDGE. BUT WHAT I DO HAVE IS A 147/8 TO 15 IN --DOG-- NOT 151/2 THAT CAN GO FROM DAYLIGHT TO DARK IN 1 AND 1/2 HOURS AND I HAVE A 14 INCH HOUND THAT IS FAST ,BUT IT IS AN INTERESTING OBSERVATION..

KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Greg H]

Maybe the ARHA could blaze a new trail and start running an "OPEN" class at the trials. I know there are time restraints on getting all of these dogs run, but I will gaurentee that in a few years having a dog with a title won in a Free For All class will be more covited than any other title.

I mean male versus female. No height limit. Run em all day until the last dog is left standing. Now that would be a true test of a hound. If it ain't built right, it won't stand a chance.


Jugde a dog for its ability to jump, and keep a rabbit moving, back to the gun. Start minusing hounds for shody work and the size issue will take care of itself.

For the guys that think if we have a 16" rule it will lead to 17" dogs your probably right. But, don't think that mother nature would not riegn them in after awhile. I don't see a 20" beagle weighting in at 60 lbs being an effective rabbit hound. Judge em on their abilities and stamina and in 30 years we will still be running 13" to 16" hounds.

I don't think our anchester were stupid. In fact they had a better grasp on what a rabbit hound should be. Back then a dog couldn't have to many faults or there would be no supper. I do, however, doubt they worried to much about a dog being 1" over 15 if it could circle the rabbit to the gun.

[bill (flint river )]

Jugde a dog for its ability to jump, and keep a rabbit moving, back to the gun. Start minusing hounds for shody work and the size issue will take care of itself..

if ahra would judge like this i would run in there trials. i like a fast hound that can keep a track going, not jump, strike, check. for a hole hour. or score over 200 in one hour.

[TC]

Ok here ya Go Folks as far as our beagle Standard VS Thier Standard
Pay Special Attention on Who Adopted Whose
There is one section in the Article that Explains WHY as to the Standard Read real Close......
Long read But VERY Educational

http://www.thebeagleclub.co.uk/

You Will Notice that there are Not 2 distinct beagles in the british or Forien Standards but just one 13” to 16”
Desirable minimum height at withers: 33 cms (13 ins). Desirable maximum height at withers: 40 cms (16 ins).
Not under 13” and not over 16”
So if the US were to adopt this standard then Would we not have to disqualify all those hounds under 13” ?




THE BEAGLE STANDARD

Chapter three of the Beagle Chronology points out that the American standard was written before the English standard.

In 1890 the Beagle Club (England) was formed.

In April, 1884, a sporting newspaper reported that the committee,
consisting of Dr L H Twaddell, General Richard Rowett, and Norman Elmore, had completed their assignment for the American-English Beagle Club and had drafted a standard and scale of points for the bench show enthusiasts.
The committee made the following report:

(There would be no such thing as a beagle field trial for another six years).


"Your committee appointed to draft a standard for the Beagle,very
respectfully report that they entered upon their duties with a full
realization of the difficulties and importance of the subject before them.

The necessity for a descriptive scale of points for this breed is very apparent. Bench show judges having no authorized type on which to base their decisions, differ widely in their estimates as to the breed makers of the race. At one show, dogs of harrier size and style win the highest recognition, at another, the smallest specimens are favored, diminutive size being seemingly the only passport to preferment, quality being overlooked or ignored.

Thus opinions clash, and breeders and fanciers hesitate to submit their dogs for exhibitions in the present see saw conditions of affairs.

With an accepted standard the judge will have a guide to lead him through the difficulties of his position, and the breeder, if a novice, will be enabled with its assistance to discard those animals that are deficient in quality, and recognize merit where it exists, thus elevating the status of his kennel.

With this preface, your committee respectfully submit the
accompanying standard and scale of points for the English beagle, the result of a careful and painstaking analysis.

The beagle standard committee presented the standard and scale of points
to the American-English Beagle Club. The document was printed in an April issue of the sporting newspaper and was accepted verbatim by the club.

Turpin reported, "This standard remained in force up to 1900 when it was revised by a committee of the National Beagle Club.

In mid June, 1884, in the same sporting newspaper, W H Ashburner
reported that the beaglers of England were considering the formation of a beagle club patterned after the club in America.

"I am pleased to say, I am informed by one of the leading beagle
breeders of England and also see it noted in The (London) Field, that
those interested in beagles are about forming a beagle club in England with the same objects for which the American English Beagle Club was formed and will, I understand, adopt the same standard as our club has done."

In 1888 the American-English Beagle Club applied for membership into the American Kennel Club and was admitted.
President Herman Schellhass informed the membership through an open letter printed by the sporting newspaper on September 13, 1888 of the AKC acceptance.




As a side bar to the history of the standard:

Twaddell, Rowett, and Elmore are given credit for developing the first American-English Beagle Club standard in 1884.

Rowett told the other two members of the committee that he was very much occupied with the breeding of thoroughbred horses. He told the other two members of the committee that he would go along with whatever they decided.

Twaddell seems to take credit for the majority of the work that led to the development of the standard. However, in 1883 Elmore wrote a letter to
Twaddell stating, "I am strongly in favor of having some recognized standard for beagle judging that shall be a guide to judges at bench shows." Elmore sent his personal beagle standard to Dr Twaddell who he "acknowledged to be one of the best beagle judges in this country." It was emphasized that the standard "does not refer to the basket or bench legged beagle." Elmer concluded:

"I wrote him my idea of what a beagle should be, giving nearly all the points mentioned in present standard, and was pleased to receive a letter from the doctor fully indorsing my standard and saying 'that he hoped I would do much to elevate the breed and give it a breed characteristic,' which I am trying do, and believe a good beagle club working through a correct standard of points would have more influence than individual efforts."

The Elmer standard was printed in a 1883 issue of the sporting
newspaper. That Elmer standard is nearly verbatim to the American-English standard accepted and printed a year later.

It should also be remembered that the Westminster Kennel Club had been using he Stonehenge beagle standard from the earliest years and the Elmore standard was very similar.


Reprinted here by permission from
A Beagle Chronology by Charles Kitchell,
Chuck Kitchell
Chardon Beagles
Eldridge, Iowa

[MasonsBeagles]

you know guys alot of people dont have measuring stands sitting around to check every hound. so bringing a big dog to a trial doesnt necessarily make them a crook. a 15" beagle is a big beagle. Ive got two young hounds down here if you look at them you will think they are monsters. they are big and long. In there kennel i thought they might push the mark. over hunting season as they started getting better and i started comparing them to a 14" female i own i realized just the fact that they are tall and long made them appear to be bigger than they really are.

I did a poll on here some time back that asked what do you think gives the most advantage at a trial and size was an option. it had quite a few people vote on it and size was a nonfactor in the voting. i agree rules are the rules and people should abide by them. I think the best dog should win no matter what. If I won a trophy at a hunt due to a dog getting measured out that was clearly the better hound, I wouldnt feel very good about that trophy knowing a better hound deserved it. i have been beating a whole lot at trials and never once did i think size had anything to do with it. people have been running big dogs for as long as i can remember. the only reason it seems more prevalent is the fact there is a whole lot more people trialing these days.

[Hunter]

Nice post TC,
But I did some looking and could not find anything on Stonehenge. From this it sounds like there was an earlier standard.
" It should also be remembered that the Westminster Kennel Club had been using he Stonehenge beagle standard from the earliest years and the Elmore standard was very similar. "
cya, Hunter

[SUNRISE10]

Ok how about this.
From 1989 Arha Little Pack. Rules
XI Breed Standards
4. The Breed Inspector has the right and duty to measure all hounds that are entered in the hunt and to disqualify any hounds that are over (15) inches.
Later the rule that we have now came to pass.Which is the best rule. Have you ever tried to measure every hound I have no thanks.
If you can't walk the walk don't talk the talk.

[TC]

Hunter wrote:

I did some looking and could not find anything on Stonehenge. From this it sounds like there was an earlier standard.

The Stonehenge Standard was a personal Standard set by Mr Stonehenge Himself for breeding and followed By many and published by William Youatt in his book the Dog published in 1846.
Stonhenge published many articles himself about beagles in the manual of British Sports in 1861 If you need more information you can find a lot at your local library such as the third Edition of the Dog published in 1872 where Idstone declares that Stonehenges book was the first publication which gave Fixed rules for breeding to perfection stonehenges direction enabled breeders to get together to compare notes....
it is also noted in MANY of these books that Stonehenge and Youatts said that the prefered Size was 11" and under....Lots of interesting reading out there and one book I would recomend would be.
The New Complete Beagle By
Henry J.Colombo
A.D.Holcombe
Lew Madden
Owen Payne
Morgan Wing Jr.
Howell Book House Inc
Copywrite 1967
TC