Measuring Hounds

[Pine MT Beagle Runner]

Just thought I would give you a little publicity. I know you have done many many good things with your hounds. I only hope that I can do even 1% as good with Pine MT Dyer's Eve. I've been trying to get her ready for the youth hunt at KTV but last Friday she went back in heat. In February she had, I guess a false heat cycle. She bleed some and her labia turned a real dark purple, but didn't swell. Now she is in full blown heat.

My nephew was going to handle her, and bring his little grade gyp. Both are out of commission now. Eve with heat and the grade dog with an injured leg. Keith is heart broken. He really enjoued the trial in March.

Eve is doing very very good. I think she is ready to start trialing on a regular basis. I really wanted to see how she would do this weekend. She supprises me at how fast she has come along every time I take her out. Only thing is she doesn't pack up for very long. She'll stay with the dog for a short while but if a rabbit is not jumped within the first few minutes she start hunting for herself. I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing for starting to trial.

Hopefully, I can get together with you and RAD and go running sometime soon. I don't know if I have Eve honed to the caliber of dog that you would feed at your kennel, but the only way she'll leave mine is when she dies.

Do you know who has Ping MT Blizzard now? Eddie and I did a line breeding senario on the program he got from you and if I remember right, crossing with Blizzard will give pups with over 50% T-Rex. This would be like having a pup right out of him. Do you have any input on this cross? She should be most receptive by this weekend.


I did not know that the Kennel name was a registered trademark. I only use your kennel name in my user name and signature line out of the greates respect for you and your hounds. I guess I should have gotten your permission first. If I have offended you in any way, I will contact Bev and get my account change as soon as possible. I is hard to tell sometimes when reading written or typed messages, the tone of the writter.

I am very satisfied with Pine MT beagle stock and want everyone to know it.


Pine MT Beagles, old school all the way

Chris Chandler

[Hunter]

Kinda funny,
Most of the posts were made within 24 hours of the original post on this thread blasting oversized dogs and stating it is the rules and since the rules from UKC on reasons for DISQUALIFICATIONS was posted nobody has even made a peep in the 48 hours since about the other reasons.
Makes a person wonder what motivation people really have.
jmo, Hunter

[Aaron Bartlett]

Paul,
Probably the reason noone has replied is because they dont understand where you are trying to go with this....GOD knows I dont!

OK my question is then why 15 when across the pond where our hounds come from they see 16 as breed standard?

Across the pond they wire explosives to themselves and blow themselves and others up. Some support terrorism. Some hate America. Some believe in a different God. Does that mean we should too just cause thats what they do???????

Looking at this it looks like UKC only wants to promote complete dogs.

Why wouldnt they? Shouldnt that be the goal for every registry??

[Hunter]

Yes Aaron, we should promote the complete dog.
When I say across the pond I am mainly speaking of England-UK since that is where the breed came from.
The place I am headed to with that is we should have the same 16" breed standard.
And my statement of peoples motives is for some crazy reason people are scared of a 16" dog, they are not truely worried about the rules or the breed because if they were they would be fired up about any rule violation.
talk with ya later, Hunter

ps The ones that set up AKC for 15" felt that this was big enough since the celtic word beag means small but, consider things are relative. With that said even 16" Beagles are small hounds considering the other hound breeds. I could be wrong but I feel UKC , ARHA , and other formats just followed AKC's lead with the 15" rule. I can't see the logic where a 16" hound would hurt the breed or prevent it from doing what it was intended to do.
I also feel the other rules listed serve a ligitimate purpose in either the health of the dog or mannerisms which would make the dog useless. To be more direct about mannerisms what good would a hunting pack hound be if all he did was want to fight with packmates or if he is shy of people or guns how would you be able to hunt with a hound like that.

[SilverZuk]

I don't run UKC yet. I plan to attend some UKC trials this year.
I have no problems with the UKC rules that I have read, and I applaud them for promoting the beagle standard across the board.

I have no problem with the Disqualifications that you listed, none would affect my dogs the same as 15" doesn't affect them.
The Disqualifications aren't relative to the measuring discussion, which is what the topic was about.

Currently I run ARHA LP, so my responses are based on what I know about that format.

I have no problem with big dogs, small dogs, dogs with snippy muzzles, pointy ears, long hair, or poor running gear in someone else's dog. I see dogs with major conformation faults at every trial. Some can flat out scald a rabbit, but I wouldn't care to own them because they aren't what I want in a beagle.

If the rules said 16", then it would be 16".
If they said it was illegal to run dogs with ticking, people would get called out at the casting stake for having a dog with ticking. Rule is a rule, if you don't like it - got to another format.

I have no problems with the current rules or do I have a desire to spend an extra day at a big hunt measuring dogs. If you have a problem with the size of a hound call it out at the casting stake.
If ARHA wants to enforce the rule - keep the existing rule in place, but measure each dog in the top 5.
That way they would only have to measure 5 open dogs, 5 champions, and 5 grands at each hunt.
Measuring 15 dogs sounds a whole lot better than measuring 700 dogs.

[island ridge hounds]

i think one gentlemen said it best on hear, something about the money.
it would be interesting to say next year at the world hunt have all the
dogs measured. do you think there would still be seven hundred plus
hounds? this would be a statement from nkc/arha that the fifteen inch
height is a rule that want be broke. sure would be a good experiment.
i'd like to know the results. i've only been to one world hunt and the one
thing that left a lasting impression was the size of the dogs. i like a fourteen to fifteen inch hound so i know i don't have small dogs they
looked like puppy's up there. does it help having a oversized dog? i
think it might with the way those bunny's run up there. in a hour cast
if the dogs run for the whole hour which one rabbit will stay up that long
up there yes i think that it makes a difference. the way our little pack
dogs reach and grab and swing it could make a big difference.

[SilverZuk]

There are advantages and disadvantages to both 13" and 15" dogs. Most dogs will take the approximately the same number of strides per minute in a dead run.
The longer, taller dog covers more distance with a single stride than a shorter dog. Therefore covers greater distance with the same amount of effort. The smaller dogs are usually quick in tight brush. Both of those are generalizations though.

I really don't want to sway this discussion about the performance though.
I think it is more about the rules.

To summarize what a few others have said;
"The purpose of the ARHA was to promote a gun dog"
That may have been the purpose, but the general concensus now is that ARHA promotes "race dogs". Fast hounds seem to be a big factor in winning.
This is not consistent in what I want in a gun dog. I have told many people that my dogs are too fast to be good rabbit dogs. I love to listen to them run, but realize that the pressure they put on a rabbit causes the rabbit to leave its home ground, hit holes, and circle widly.
I have hunted for a few years with medium speed hounds and will tell you they put more rabbits in front of the gun. The rabbits usually make consistent circles and are loping along out in front of the dogs.

The "ideal gun dog" that the ARHA LP is promoting is subjective.
So would letting 16", 17", or 18" dogs be promoting the "gun dog"?

Overall it boils down to the rules.
They have rules, policing, and discipline about height of hounds covered.
I really see no need for more rules or processes.

[gus]

So we change beagle maximum size to 16" because they do it in England. Let's also consider changing the side of the road we drive when we go to a trial.

[nky beagler]

anybody thought about starting a new association for beagles of any size sounds like a lot people have oversized dogs might be a money maker just bring your dogs and let them run no crying or whineing

[Hunter]

So we change beagle maximum size to 16" because they do it in England. Let's also consider changing the side of the road we drive when we go to a trial.

Hey Gus,
The way your post reads to me, you and others are missing the point. We did not import driving from England but, That is the origin of the Beagles.

Zuk, you mention your dogs racing but you fail to mention a LP dog skirts, swings, and cuts. You might try a PP dog that has some more line control and you would probably see the same thing you are seeing in those slower dogs you are in search of.

Hey Aaron,
I had another thought today...imagine that...LOL.
Some things to consider...
What was the education of upper class men around the 1880's?
I would think an average or possibly below average person today would be more intelligent than the upper class of that time.
How easy was it to communicate with those overseas?
I would not think they would have even 1/5 of the ability to acquire information for consideration when putting these standards in place.



cya, Hunter

[Pine Mt Beagles]

CHRIS
NO OFFENCE TAKEN I WAS JUST SURPRISED TO SEE ANOTHER PINE MT BEAGLE. TAKE CARE MAN AND BEST OF LUCK.....
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Pine Mt Beagles]

THIS POST MAKES FOR SOME INTERESTING READING BUT ANYONE WHO THINKS N.K.C. OR A.K.C IS THE LEAST INTERESTED IN THE SIZE OF A BEAGLE AT A TRIAL, I THINK MIGHT BE A LITTLE MISLEAD.IT IS SIMPLE .THEY WOULD MEASURE BEFORE EACH HUNT OR TRIAL.LOL. THEY WOULD LOOSE TO MUCH MONEY .IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN,I THINK IF A DOG IS MEASURED AFTER HE IS INTERED AND IS FOUND OVER THE OWNER SHOULD GET HIS OR HER MONEY BACK..I KNOW A LOT OF YOU PRO'S SAY WELL HE KNEW IT WAS OVER WELL B.S. SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE STANDS AND CAN'T USE ONE ,I HAVE SAW MASTER OF HOUNDS AND A.K.C. JUDGES MEASURE THE SAME HOUND AND ALL GET DIFFERENT MEASUREMENTS .EVERY ONE WHO BRING'S A BIG HOUND IN IS NOT JUST TRYING TO CHEAT-------AND SHOULD NOT BE COMPAIRED TO JUDGES WHO DON'T GIVE THE CORRECT SCORE.. J.M.O.
PINE MT BEAGLES

[bobs beagles]

pine mt every one i know that trials has a real good idea how big their dog is
im not buying that one


bob male

[TurnLeftBeagles]

I had somebody jump me about running a hound that they thought was oversized a couple of years ago. The dog was never measured and I was confident he wasn't even close. After that hunt I came home and measrued him up at 14 1/4", it bothered me, but now I know. I got a nice little PVC measuring stand from Linton Cress at the world hunt for $20, now I know what all my dogs measure.

[BBOARDING3]

bobs beagles,

I dont know what my dogs measure at this time. I have pulled out the tape measure but im still unsure at they measure at. I know they are close. Also, I have heard of dogs being under 15 in one hunt but measure out in the next. It all depense on the judge i guess.