HOW Many HOUNDS Measured OUT At THE World HUNT This YEAR

[SilverZuk]

I posted this in another thread also, but hope it brings some more thought into the discussion.

If they wanted to get serious about 15" they would measure the winners pack at each hunt.

The bottom line is that not that many people care, and ARHA makes money on hounds entering trials regardless of size. So I can see why they would be slow to exclude a portion of their existing customers.

They leave it up to handler at the casting stake to make the call.
Step up to the plate and call it, or keep your mouth shut about a dog being over 15".

It is up to the owner to enter a dog over 15" and take the risk of being measured out. I don't see the reason for anymore rules than what is already there. They already have the height issue covered and policed.
I don't want to spend an extra day at a big hunt because they had to measure all hounds before the hunt. I don't see the need to waste my time at every hunt I place in measuring my dogs that aren't even close to 15".

[CHRIS WHITT]

I also agree with size don't matter.If my hound can't beat a 16'' hound than he does not deserve to win.BUT rules are rules and if you dont like the rules dont play the game.

[SouthernBeagles]

Hey Southern,
This is why I feel they should measure the dog with his head down.

The AKC Judges siminar teaches the judges to measure the dog in a relaxed natural stance on the ground with the neck extended out. NOT UP, NOT DOWN. You are supposed to measure to the highest point of the withers, not the neck, not the back.

I have seen judges try to show stack the dogs (head and neck up and dogs on the toes). This isn't right.

I have also seen them measure up the neck, behind the withers, and everywere in between. I have also seen dogs that wouldn't stand up at all and dogs that swelled up like a puffer fish because other dogs were around and he wanted to look big, lol.

Point is, the correct way to measure is taught but isn't always how its done and the dogs don't always cooperate, lol. You have to have some margin for error, thats why I suggested a three time in a year deal.

When I went through the siminar, we each paired up and measured the dogs. Only two of us got the same measurement.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

IF EVERY ONE THAT PRETENDS TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE OVER SIZED DOGS WANTED TO FIX THE PROBLEM FIRST N K C NEED'S TO HAVE A 13 INCH CLASS NEXT PEOPLE THAT BREED PUPS NEED TO BUY THE CHEAPEST DOG FOOD POSSABLE SO THEY WANT GET THE POTENTIAL SIZE OUT OF THE DOGS A BLIND PERSON CAN SEE IN NKC AND AKC THERE ARE A LOT OF DOGS OVER-- NOT ONE OR TWO PROBLY A THIRD OR SO THE DOGS ARE GETTING BIGGER, FOR A LOT OF REASONS SELECTIVE BREEDING AND BETTER NUTRITION.ARE JUST A COUPLE.I DON'T HAVE ANY THAT IS OVER AND I TRY VERY HARD TO KEEP IN THE STANDARD BUT SOME WILL GET BIG. THERE'S AN OLD SAYING IF YOU CAN'T BEAT'EM MEASURE 'EM J.M.O.P.S IF YOU DON'T MEASURE A DOG BEFORE YOU GET THE MAN'S MONEY EITHER DON'T OR GIVE IT BACK EVERY ONE DON'T HAVE STANDS............
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Blu Tick Beagler]

I posted this in another thread also, but hope it brings some more thought into the discussion.

If they wanted to get serious about 15" they would measure the winners pack at each hunt.

The bottom line is that not that many people care, and ARHA makes money on hounds entering trials regardless of size. So I can see why they would be slow to exclude a portion of their existing customers.

They leave it up to handler at the casting stake to make the call.
Step up to the plate and call it, or keep your mouth shut about a dog being over 15".

It is up to the owner to enter a dog over 15" and take the risk of being measured out. I don't see the reason for anymore rules than what is already there. They already have the height issue covered and policed.
I don't want to spend an extra day at a big hunt because they had to measure all hounds before the hunt. I don't see the need to waste my time at every hunt I place in measuring my dogs that aren't even close to 15".

We went through all of the scenarios a year ago on how, and why a hound should, and would be measured. All clubs and members had the opportunity to write and submit rule proposals and changes. These reules were compiled and sent to all clubs to be voted on. A meeting was held in August in Lynnville,IN. All clubs and or representing members were asked to attend. Based on the vote.. The measuring rules were shot down by an overwhelming number. Except the fact that a breed inspector can ask for assistance from the owner to make the hound stand.(The above rule proposal was on there to be voted on/Measuring winners pack). The new rule book has been frozen, and will not be changed.

Yes there are some big hounds out there, I saw some measure out at the world and measured several myself. Some folks were really good sports and othere were not. One guy laughed when he was measured out at 16" and said wow, "I thouth he was 16 and a 1/2, but I knew it when I loaded him up and drove 280 miles" He shook everyone's hand smiled and loaded up his hound and drove home.

[RED BRUSH KENNELS]

paul,i don't agree with you that running a hound that is over 15 is as bad as buddy judging.it's not even close.just because your on the e-board and you have to agree with the rules dosen't mean that a person running a hound over 15 should be compared to a down right cheater.i have ran dogs that were over,or close to being over and so have you.if you raise a pup and put alot of time into it and when it's done growing it's 15 to 15 1/2 your going to run it and if someone has a problem than they have a right to have you measured.most dogs these days are 15 or bigger.i know by running a dog that is over 15 your breaking a rule,but a half inch to an inch isn't going to make a difference in the feild,but a cheating judge will.arha was started to promote the rabbit dog.the last time i checked the rabbit didn't care how big the dog was that was chasing it.when a gun hunter has a litter of pups he dosen't look at them and say i need to get rid of that one because he's to big to run a rabbit and be a good gun dog.everyone has their own opinion about this and that's fine.in my opinion nkc needs to get back to promoting the gun dog,but like i said everyone has an opinion and thats just mine.

[Aaron Bartlett]

Good post Paul! I agree!

[Pine Mt Beagles]

SORRY PAUL
I DISAGREE TO-- NOT EVERY ONE HAS MEASURING STANDS AND MOST THAT DO CAN'T USE IT, MOST MASTER OF HOUND AND AKC JUDGES CAN;T EITHER .I THINK THAT IF A DOG MEASURES OUT GIVE THE MONEY BACK THE FIRST TIME .OR MEASURE THE DOGS BEFORE THE HUNT LIKE AKC OR NKC WOULD ALLOW THAT LOL AS FAR AS CHEATING GOES NOTHING IS WORSE THAN BUDDY JUDGING.IF THE DOG IS NOT MEASURED BEFORE THE HUNT- OR- THE PERSON GETS THE ENTRY FEE BACK IF IT IS AN HONEST MISTAKE THEN THE CLUB IS JUST STEALING THE ENTRY FEE FROM THE INDIVIDUAL. NOT EVERY ONE IS A CHEATER. J M O. P.S THE ONLY TIME THE HEIGHT RULE IS POLICED IS FOR PERSONAL GAIN NOT BECAUSE IT IS A RULE
PINE MT BEAGLES

[TurnLeftBeagles]

Guys it's as simple as this, if you are running an oversized hound and know that you are, don't get pissed when someone calls for your hound to be measured. The rule is 15" if you can't follow it be prepared to pack up and go home at any time. Know what your packing and be prepared to suffer the consequences if you are breaking the rules. The rules are the rules and everyone has to play by them ALL for it to be a fair sport!

[SouthernBeagles]

Is running a 15+ inch hound cheating?????? Only if you know he is over 15 and try to slip him through!

the last time i checked the rabbit didn't care how big the dog was that was chasing it.

You are SOOOO RIGHT!! The rabbit don't care!!! So run that dog! Hunt that dog! Breed that dog!! Enjoy that dog! What ever floats your boat! But rules are rules. He is a rabbit dog, hunting dog, stud dog, but he AINT a trial dog!

If you guys are so bent on running 15+ inch dogs and it is obvious who has them, why not start a NEW format just for over 15 inch dogs? Let see, you have progressive pack, Little Pack, Large pack, Small pack........ I got it! You can call it Tall Pack!

[JCM]

I don't see how NKC can act like they are doing anything to stop oversize hounds from running in hunts when you consider

1. NKC does not have official measurements
2. NKC does not have an official measuring stand
3. NKC does not have official measurers
4. NKC will not allow you to pre-measure before a hunt
5. NKC does not have a procedure for measuring that they teach (like AKC Judging Seminars)

The Measurers at the World Hunt even measured dogs 3 times. I know one dog measured under 15", and they stacked him up (actually put his hand under the dog's chest and stood him up). This tells me, this measurer either didn't follow the rules or didn't know how to measure dogs properly.

[beagler282]

I have to disagree with that statement.
1.The official measurement is 15"
2.You can purchase a measuring stand from dog suppliers that sell them.
3.Each organization that is part of NKC such as Little Pack and Progressive Pack should have a licensed Breed Inspector measure the hound.
4.You can pre-measure before a hunt if the club chooses to.
5.The correct procedure for measuring a hound is in a natural stance with head in a natural position.Not up in the air or facing downward.Take the measurement above the two front legs on the 2 bones (withers).
6.Stacking a dog is not a natural stance and should not be done.

It is up to each organization to make their rules and enforce them.When i say organization I'm refering to the people that are the leaders or the one's in charge of the division.LP,PP,GDB,GDP,BP.

People should find a division to fit their dog and not try and change rules within a division to fit their dog.I would like to compete in AKC SPO and have tried but I don't have the style nor run like their rules say my dog should.That doesn't mean I should try and change their rules so I compete in a division that my dogs are suited for and yes I have been called out to have my dog measured and passed the test.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

FELLOWS THIS IS A GOOD POST BUT IT IS GETTING OLD AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER BACK I HAVE NEVER HAD A DOG MEASURED OR HAVE I ASKED FOR ONE TO BE MEASURED . JUST THINK IF HEIGHT WAS THE ONLY PROBLEM THAT THE BEAGLE FORMATS HAD IT SURE BE NICE .WE HAVE MUCH- MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS. GOOD LUCK

KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[BIG AL]

The only problem I have with measuring hounds before the hunt begins is not everyone hunts the same dog that they have premeasured. Measure a smaller dog and take a bigger dog to the field. Harder to do though when the handlers know each other and know each others hounds.

[Hunter]

Hey Beagler 282,
I have been called out before and my hound measured in too. I am curious as to were you found all of your statements. Could you post the links? I could not find them on ARHA. Some I have seen on the AKC page and some on UKC but not all together.

Again, I am looking for the logic behind America to change the standard of the breed. Someone said the AKC will accept hounds from the CKC and KC but I went looking and they will accept from quite a few different registries. They do this knowing that at least some of these consider breed standard to be 16".

I also found US census said that only 2% of people 17 and over graduated from high school in 1870. This would be close to the time frame for those who came up with the 15" breed standard rule. Have you ever considered this? So basically we have a few guys that are screaming it is THE RULES how would you feel if we scratched the rules completely and take a group of 6 graders of today that love dogs and put them in a room and say make us some rules to run trials with. I would be willing to consider that these 6 graders are above the intellectual level as the men of 130 years ago...how willing would you still be to scream but it is the rules knowing the who made them and the degree of their education?
jmo, Hunter