Why is there so much AKC predjudice?

beaglebill · Post by **beaglebill** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:19 pm

In the 50s 60s we still had AKC dogs that had medium speed they just didnt enter brace field trials at least in this area. As a matter of fact sometime i think some of the dogs i had then may have been better that what i have today. I really dont think one should believe that all dogs in that time frame was walki talki....

Little Dog · Post by **Little Dog** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:23 pm

Alabama, you hit the nail on the head. You knew where I was going -- thanks! It was to obvious.

When I was a kid AKC dogs were not considered hunting dogs where I lived. That might have been different elsewhere. Now 30 or 40 years later they are fast -- ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe those pure lines are not so pure. The old rabbit hunters keep the lines alive that really ran a rabbit at a faster hunting style pace, but that was before many of us. Thanks goodness they did. Until recently, I was shy to the AKC dogs, but I've seen some good ones lately.

I got nothing against any dog and if it can run a rabbit I like it. To be honest with you, if you had a terrier that could run and jump a rabbit the way I liked I'd kennel it. Of course, I'm no breeder.

As for cheap grade dogs. Mason's friend in Shelbyville offered a buddy of mine (Joe Robinson of Louisville) $600 for a 6 month old grade puppy named Sweet Pea. There are plenty of exceptions to the rule, but I must agree papered dogs are worth more.

THE BEST DOG IS THE DOG THAT PLEASES YOU THE BEST!

DG TX · Post by **DG TX** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:29 am

When the first SPO trials started down South,(1980) we had bloodlines and breeders come out of the woodwork that we had never heard of. The pedigrees were of length as the breeders had kept the AKC papers up as a form of recordkeeping thru the years. LOTS of Northern Large Pack on Hare breeding had been used thru the years as well as those breeders kept top standards in breeding. Men like W P Land and John Landrum used the Fish Creek and Weir Creek lines during the 60's to produce what is still being used down here today. Ollie Scott kept his line going which would eventually produced FC Del Ray Stubby in the first competitions of SPO.

laal · Post by **laal** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:53 am

DG TX, you are right on!! Alabama John the reason spo trials came about was to give beaglers that liked hunting dogs a place to trial there dogs, I have hunted with folks that ran nothing but akc dogs back in the 50's and 60's, when the deep south gundog (spo) came to town these dogs took there part of the blue ribbons.. There were lots of akc RABBIT dogs.

Little Dog you were like most rabbit hunters back in the brace days, you put all akc dogs in one bag, and never looked for a good one, now you will at least give them credit for being good rabbit dogs, they allways were.

The folks I hunted with and ran with were Ray cargile, Fred Gray, Mack Deason, Mr Studderd (sp) all akc dogs from all over the USA.

Now that I have said how good akc dogs were let me say that the best 2 dogs that I ever hunted with were grade dogs,

Union Co. Beagles · Post by **Union Co. Beagles** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 10:15 am

Well I guess I got every explaination possible?I guess I'll breed my dogs to suit me and my trial format.I'm happy with my breeding program and it's results so as was said I guess thats what truly matters.
Thanx,
John

MasonsBeagles · Post by **MasonsBeagles** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 11:30 am

Like I said I have seen the AKC hounds be more consistent. However there is a grade line that is consistent and if I was to breed an AKC female to a grade dog, Id slip on down to Waddy KY and bring Big Ben a girlfriend, because he is a consistent reproducer. He has made HOF as a reproducer. THere are exceptions and he is definately one of them. I was told about the $600 offer. Must be one heck of a little dog.

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:43 pm

I believe in most grade dogs if you look and ask, there is more AKC dogs in the lineage than you might expect.

All the grade dog people I know bred best to best and if the best they know of is AKC, they will breed to it.

I'm just saying to be careful of a line of AKC dogs that have been line bred, inbred, etc to be so pure in running one trial format and when the trial format changes, or a new format becomes more popular, and thus will sell more pups that meet it, they magically have an AKC stud from their breeding that is producing dogs that will throw pups to fit that new format. I feel that stud could be another line of AKC dogs, or, just might be a grade dog kept in the back of the barn out of sight that can't believe his good luck.

I'm sure there are many, probably most, AKC breeders that keep the dogs and records straight and honest.

I just do not trust AKC papers as I have seen too many games played with them.

NC Beagler · Post by **NC Beagler** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:02 pm

While the AKC is the certainly the most recognized and respected registry it is by no means perfect. The AKC has both good gundogs and good for nothing dogs. Some AKC beagles have good conformation and some have extremely poor confirmation. Some AKC records are completely accurate and some have been falsified along the way. What bothers me the most is that if you don't have an AKC dog people look down on your dog as second class - even if your grade dog can consitently out perform their AKC dogs.

For example, I bought a grade male from a man who had bred a line of bealges for over 30 years. He said that his original stock had a lot of gay in them - but he had not kept up the papers for year. I had heard that he had great rabbit dogs that were beautiful tri-colors. I got the pick of the litter. I heard about a guy in my aread w/ a starting pen so at 6 months old I took this pup to be started. (I had already taken this pup out a couple times and he had opened up a little)

Well, the first thing this guy asked me was if my dog was AKC and who it was out of. When he learned it was a grade dog he started treating me and my dog like we were second rate. He proudly and arogantly showed me (and my wife who was with me) his kennel of AKC registered line-bred beagles.

I took a look at his dogs and couldn't believe it - they were all short legged dauchsund looking beagles. I'm not kidding - they looked just tri-colored dauschsund. My wife said out loud what I was thinking - those beagles look like weiner dogs! I don't think this ole' timer liked that much. But he proudly declared these are AKC registered linebred dogs!!!!

Well, he was in the process of starting a litter he had and so he dropped my pup in the starting pen with his pups that were already somewhat running. In no time my pup opened up and started running. I got so excited and was hoop'in and hollering! Then I noticed his AKC weiner beagles were sure making a lot of noise, but they weren't covering much ground! My pups was running wide open and bawling like a coon hound! He ran that rabbit about 3 loops and those AKC weiner bealges hadn't even made it around once yet!

Well, needless to say that ole timer was not happy and told me to pick up my herky jerky dog. He was not happy. He did end up running the pup some more for me, but not with his dogs. Here is what bus me. This guy had ugly, slow dogs that struggled to run a rabbit one loop and my grade dog was beautiful and ran the rabbit like a champion. But, since his were ACK and my was grade - he looked down on my dog.

I say the true test of a rabbit dog is performance in the field!! And just b/c its AKC doesn't mean it is pure bred and it doesn't mean it can produce more rabbits.

MasonsBeagles · Post by **MasonsBeagles** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:48 pm

I will agree with crooked papers. IT is about to be the thing of the past with The DNA. DNA will eventually be required for all AKC hounds. It is coming. Stud dogs are know being required. So there will be dogs that have slipped in but the door is about to be slammed shut. For one I like the DNA system. Even though I think AKC uses it as a money maker.

Little Dog · Post by **Little Dog** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:07 pm

Now, don't get me wrong I love all beagles that can run a rabbit. And yes I was lumping AKC dogs and I should not do that -- it was not right, but I knew no better as a kid. I just don't like to see any dog get knocked -- grade or AKC. Heck my two best dogs come from a line, it is just a line of dogs in one man's mind that he never bothered to paper them but it is a close line nonetheless.

Mason, man you ain't gonna believe where that dog is now. Sitting on a couch watching TV probably, and ain't been out since I took her out more than a month ago. Sweet Pea's was offered to me for free if I'd run her, but things just did not work out, but that is a long story. She'd been good if she'd had half a chance. That Ben topside and one of Blueback's daughters cross threw a couple of good pups, but I just did not end up with one of the good ones in my kennel.

MasonsBeagles · Post by **MasonsBeagles** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:13 pm

Man,
That is a shame. Earl said it is the best dog he has ever started in his running pen. I believe I would have kept her. lol But you never know. It would be interesting to know how many world beaters are couch potatos. lol

Take it easy Little dog we still need to hook up and run em.

Will

bullboy · Post by **bullboy** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:19 pm

guys in my mind its all about money dna testing ive been blood typing dairy cattle for years because of embryo transfer now we have to test for resessive genes and all ads up 45 for dna 85 for resessives but you have to make it up in the end 200 pup testing reg and every thing else all of a sudden you need 300 for that pupwent and looked at a really good stud but he is ukc the owner said that a lot of people ask about him and get turned off because of ukc they are worth less if its the right stud and is going to make the right dog i personally dont care but it still is all about money

DarrinG · Post by **DarrinG** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:57 pm

Up until recently I would not even look at a potential new dog if it was not AKC registered. I had tunnel vision to the extreme.

One day not long ago while watching a young female grade dog run that a friend of mine owns, I finally realized that there are indeed rabbit dawgs out there that are not AKC registered. I realized that I was missing out on some danged fine hounds by wearing my AKC blinders.

I now have a grade bitch in my kennel and am going to pick up another grade bitch on Friday. Both are NKC/ARHA registered only and one is a NKC LP RCH. Hopefully the other will RCH! I am not into beagles to breed, sell and make money. If I breed a dog and have a few more pups than I need, I may sell a few. I am simply into it for my own pleasure and to have the best pack possible, be it AKC or not. I will never wear AKC blinders again.

There are indeed fine AKC registered dogs out there, but dont get tunnel vision and think AKC is the only thing going!

arrow · Post by **arrow** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:45 pm

With their " Holier Than Thou" attitude I think the AKC should be held for Public Flogging... Under their rules how on earth did we ever get Patch hounds??? Where did the Reds come from???I can't imagine the lowly Bluetick even getting to smell a AKC paper..... I have eight beagles,some B&t, some Red, and some Bluetick, and they are all DUAL REGISTERED, AKC and NKC/ARHA. I Field Trial just about every week-end. DON'T call my hounds GRADE if I choose to stop sending my money to AKC. They make me Sick...I don't hunt their formats simply because my hounds are too fast, but that's my choice and I don't need to defend it.........I feel a little better now that I got that off my chest.

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Why is there so much AKC predjudice?

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