Breeding for Nose.

[klrconcrete]

Not trying to be a smartass but just because she ran on snow doesnt make her a snowdog. The term "snowdog" is a very vague description if it were above 20 degrees on fresh snow a collie should pound a hare! When I speak of a snowdog I am talking about a dog that puts game in front of the gun at or below zero temps and on a variety of snow conditions not just snow we are talking snow that has been on the ground for a week- tracks of all kinds everywhere and been through a variety of temps from thawing and refreezing to subzero temps etc. The condition of the snow in my opinion plays a bigger role than the temperature. below zero on fresh snow and I am running well, below zero on week old crusty junk and it will be a walk with a fair amount of checks and more grubbing than heads up running.

[Rabbithoundjb]

It is jmo, but I believe that a dog just like a person should think before he opens his mouth and that my fellow hunters is BRAINS. It is possible, just like any other trait to breed nose into your dogs. I personally will not breed more nose than brains. Areas were all of us run dogs vary and you should breed what satisfies you. I will close this response by simply saying when any trait is bred into a hound beyond what the brain can process you will end up with a dog that never reaches the ability you were looking for, probably a faulty hound.

[mybeagles]

NorWester, what are you doing to create the hounds with the best noses? Are you breeding cold nosed dogs to cold nosed dogs and culling all the excessively mouthy ones....

I cant believe breeding cold nosed dog to hotter nosed dog is going to improve the kennel any?

Cold nose must be a recessive trait, as it doesnt seem to pass on easily.

If what you say about the humidity is correct one could watch the humidity on the news and determine good or bad running conditions....Ive checked that on occation, but its not fool proof.

[Hatfield]

Not trying to be a smartass but just because she ran on snow doesnt make her a snowdog.

I agree. I didn't mean for it to read that way. If you can move the track bark if you can't don't. I don't like them barking in the check either.

Norwester I am of the same belief as you on the dryness factor. I have had days when I thought the running would be great and it was hit and miss, with hard work to get it done.

[NorWester]

Kurt, I agree ....just cause there is white stuff on the ground doesnt mean you got a "snowhound" In fact some of the very best days I've ever had were on snow. Using that one statement one could say it must be easier right? Like you wrote, it's a lot more complicated than that. Mybeagles, I'm not far enough along breeding anything to say I'm improving the situation. Truth is I really don't want to be breeding as I got into the little hounds with the expectation that I could accumulate 4 to 8 good ones and just get out and enjoy hunting. Unfortunately where I am, finding 4 to 8 good ones has been like pulling teeth from a chicken. It looks like I'll be forced into breeding some as I don't see any other way around it. Ive got one bitch here that in ideal conditions cold tracks, I've seen her backtrack some, also seen her have trouble in a small area tracked up like crazy trying to sort out the whole mess as she can smell ALL the tracks in there, not just the hot lane leading out. However on cold,dry tough days that all disappears and while the others seem to strike hard on the jump, they just cant smell the track after that. This bitch can however. I bred her to a big male of mine who possesses average nose at best, but he was all I had to use at the time. Steve of Northern Pride in MN has been kind enough to work with me as he has similar goals in mind (breeding the kind that can run when it counts) and I'm looking forward to getting out with TomMN who posts on here. He too wants a dog that can run in a northern climate when it counts. Also Andy of LonePine has been kind enough to provide me with a opportunity to pick up a Rambo son, so I'm looking forward to that. I have figured out to some degree a direction to go and it works something like this. First you need nose power, without it you're not running much. Number two, stay away from speedy type bred dogs. They tend to be rough and competitive, or at least too rough and competitive for the conditions when it gets cold and dry. A hound that creates losses is making a bill that it can't afford to pay when one 2 min check means the end of the race. Steady as she goes is the order for the day. Dont get me wrong, I want them to MOVE it out and dont really care if they do it running backwards 3 feet to the side of the line........as long as they dont lose it. After that.....I havent a clue of what I'm up to The relative humidity (what they list on weather reports) only tells part of the story. Ive seen it when it was 90% here......but the ground was bone dry. Also seen it where it was raining and the report said it was only 80%......so I'm not sure exactly how that works and there are certainly no absolutes. Just as I'm sure there can be too much moisture or humidity. Generally speaking however, humidity is a good thing and very pivotal in the tracking process. It is a catalyst in starting the bacterial breakdown of fallen skin and hair particles that make up the "scent" animals have and the hounds track. Without humidity this process is retarded or delayed as on snow or ice where it can sometimes be preserved until warmth and humidity begins the process of making "scent". I call it the refridgerator effect. Like a roast in the fridge or freezer it has little or no scent that we can detect, but put some water on it and warm it up and its "smell city"

[bullboy]

i would not say cold nose is a ressive gene when working with many genes all those genes hae different heratibility percentages as to how easy it is bred into animals in dairy cattle i could tell you every traits percentages but in dogs or beagles i don't think anyone has invested money in this

[NorWester]

The traits that make up a "cold nose" are recessive. If they weren't we wouldnt have to go out of our way to breed for it.

[bullboy]

what ever i won't even try to explane

[smithbros.1]

I believe Humidity at the ground level is the most important. During the summer you can get good running even when the weather is warm....until the dew goes off.
Winter running can be a real treat. The dry snow is the toughest condition we encounter here in Mid-Michigan. The best way I have found to determine scenting conditions....is to watch the smoke out of the woodstove. If the smoke comes out & goes to the ground, the hounds usually have a good day. The days that the smoke rises straight up....BAD almost always.

Dave when you find the next great snow hound, get two of them......You know where to leave it!
Later Jason

[Skip]

Where I live, these extreme winter conditions usually last 1 1/2 - 2 months. My better dogs drop to about "average" during this period.

If I never run cotton tails or if I lived in the U.P., I'm sure I would keep a different kind of dog.

It's an interesting question on whether or not "a cold nose" is a recessive or dominant gene. I suppose it depends on the line or the cross.

[bullboy]

first off a recessive gene is a hidden gene that both parents must posses for it to come out what i was going to try and explane was that some traits do not transfer as well as the next, in beagles i would say speed is a trait that is highly heritable it seems you can bred a slower dog to a faster one and gain speed in one generation . may be speed is a 50% heritable trait where nose maybe only 10 or 15 this is just a forinsistence.

[full circle kennel]

everyone has their opinion on nose power but little have linked the "nose power" to " line control" if a hound has a sub par nose and cannot hold onto the line because of its speed the track ends in minutes in extreme conditions. also everyone seems to only run one style of dog here. i have two small packs, 3 lp style and 3 med speed spo. i enjoy running both. on better days the lp dogs are exciting. but in our worst conditions my peanut rollers get the nod. i have personally seen days where my slower ones can run and the fast ones cant. nose and line control are where it at on the toughest days.i also wanted to point out that everyone has diff. needs depending on where you live and hunt not what someone does somewhere else.if this game was too easy nobody would like it.

[NorWester]

first off a recessive gene is a hidden gene that both parents must posses for it to come out what i was going to try and explane was that some traits do not transfer as well as the next, in beagles i would say speed is a trait that is highly heritable it seems you can bred a slower dog to a faster one and gain speed in one generation . may be speed is a 50% heritable trait where nose maybe only 10 or 15 this is just a forinsistence.

A recessive trait isn't always hidden and by what you wrote you just explained why there aren't many beagles that possess the characteristics that make up a "cold nose". This is why one would inbreed or linebreed on a hound or hounds that do have a cold nose, to lock in the recessive traits so they will appear in the offspring or decendants.

[joe kaschak]

Patch,
Your comment about keeping in a 70 degree house might affect their desire is not a true statement. I keep my hounds in the house and we were out today and the desire was there. Did they struggle?? yes. scenting conditions were not to good, it was cold (in the low teens) with a good stiff wind. I kept them out for a little over 2 hours and then the stamina thing (mine) kicked in. On the way back to the truck, they only wanted to hunt the brush to try and kick up a rabbit. I think if the hounds have the desire, intellegence, and are well taken care of, they can overcome some of the less serious faults. jmho Joe Kaschak

[joe kaschak]

Patch,
Just seen that I missed the last sentence of your post. You said the same thing I just stated. Dang, seems like the hounds are smarter than I am Joe K