Breeding for Nose.

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:00 pm

Minus 7 degrees with old snow when we dropped dogs today.....down for 6 hours with plenty of hare in the area. Didnt run 10 minutes total all day. Dogs hunted hard, but simply couldnt run more than 50 yards without a loss they couldnt recover.

I realize very very few dogs can run in these conditions, but there are some that can. My question is how to produce that type of dog. I owned a female that could always run....yes she had extra mouth at times, but not bad. She has been bred 5 times and I only know of 1 of the pups that had equal nose.

My question is, do you think you can breed for nose? If so, do you breed dogs with big nose and a little extra mouth in hopes the extra mouth wont come? Never seen a dog with phenominal nose that didnt give a few extra barks. Does anyone think they have such a dog? No offense, but if you live in southern states and have never run in temps below zero with old snow you wouldnt know if your dog has phenominal nose. Any and all thoughts of how to breed for this type of hound appreciated.

bill (flint river ) · Post by **bill (flint river )** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:12 pm

the promblem i find is u cant run more then 1 hound when it gets like that.

i dont care if it has a few extra barks as long as it can get the rabbit back around. i feel u have have to breed it in. look more toward the north style hounds then in the southern parts.

NorWester · Post by **NorWester** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:05 pm

No one breeds for it.......when they get one that does have the kind of nose power to run when it is really needed.....its a fluke. Just the way Mybeagles referred to them having "extra mouth" or how some say faulty mouth shows how most view the subject, in a negative fashion. If they do have a hound that can get it done they breed to another with "correct" mouth and then wonder why they don't get the nose power they hoped for. If you have a hound that in IDEAL running conditions cold trails, has spats of back tracking problems and looks like an idiot in an small area all tracked trying to move a hare out.........this may be a candidate to run in cold, dry nasty conditions. When it gets nasty the same hound will show no extra mouth, won't back track and now the tracked up areas are easy to sort out. Its really a catch 22 situation and it may just be that the best hound for running when its ugly out is one that is left at home UNTIL it is nasty. I'll also say the reason no one has any luck running more than one hound in tough conditions is that pretty well everyone breeds for competitive hounds, dogs they can trial and show everyone who the best INDIVIDUAL hound is. I believe a balanced pack that honours each other with capable abilities can run when its tough. These dogs probably won't be trial superstars though.

smithbros.1 · Post by **smithbros.1** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:40 pm

Ever saw a BIG nosed dog with a huge ball voice? Seems like ballers have a more correct mouth. Why can't you put a great nose & ball mouth together.
Dave I know exactly where your going with this post. I have saw ONE dog in my life that can run on these days......Its the same little female your talking about.

Greg H · Post by **Greg H** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:43 pm

We haven't seen these kind of temps for a few winters now and I can tell that the lack of severe weather has changed the style of dog I kennel. I have to ask myself tho' would it be worth having that cold nosed hound back for 2 weeks or a months worth of severe weather. If I was depending on the dogs to eat, you bet. But, I found that during normal less severe weather that type of dog was just to disruptive to the pack.

gundog · Post by **gundog** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:15 pm

I think you can breed for nose. I'm with you on the extra barks-- I feel most dogs with huge noses will give some extra. You need to have some brains to go with the nose. I've never run hare only cottontail but if we had a really tough day I would bring only 2 or 3 hounds at the most. You would want the hounds you bring to be able to gear way down and basically "walk" it out.
Look for a dog that can bark it when others cant like up a dry blacktop road in summertime, Or across a sheet of ice in the winter. You would probably have to breed a big nosed bitch to a big nosed dog to keep that nose power going. I don't think breeding a average nosed bitch to a big nosed stud would work although you could get lucky.

Gary A · Post by **Gary A** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:20 pm

I have a dog that I think has a big nose. When conditions are bad I run him by himself, and he has proved he can circle a rabbit. When conditions are not that bad, he is still the best dog I have.

klrconcrete · Post by **klrconcrete** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:59 pm

Dave, I think you can breed for nose but it is something that has to be in the"family" of dogs not just the male or female, also I think you must have a male and female with equal abilities. The conditions you described really dont sound that bad to me, I have a female that I know would have jumped and ran Hare to the gun on these conditions. Kurt

B.Trull · Post by **B.Trull** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:59 am

I dont think it is breeding for nose at all; it is breeding for brains. Too many stupid hounds out there. It takes practice for a hound to run in cold dry , conditions, even a smart dog. If I knew in 95' , what I know now, then hunt and brains would be the 2 traits I would place at the top of my list.

JMHO

Joe P. · Post by **Joe P.** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:00 am

Mybeagles, I do take offense to what you said. I live in Oklahoma and I do know what a phenominal nose is. In 2005 and 2006 we had to run in drought conditions. It was so dry that all of our sloughs were dry and large farm ponds were going dry and the ranchers were having to haul water to their livestock.

Everyone that runs beagles for any length of time will have adverse conditions at some point and see if they have have a dog with a huge nose and the brains to use it. I do agree with the other guys that say it takes brains to use the nose.

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:36 am

There's and old saying, "A hound born with a poor nose, will die with a poor nose", "a hound born with a good nose, will die with a good nose" so, the only variance is brains, and how they combine the information recieved to use their mouth and adjust their speed. Thus the saying, "Perfect to a fault" comes to mind, when a good nose comes on a weak minded hound...

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:49 am

I have heard the argument about the brains controlling the loose barking, but Im not sure I agree. If that were the case, certainly someone would have created a line of dogs with phenominal noses that dont have the extra bark in good conditions by breeding in enough brains. Maybe a smart beagle thinks its dumb to be out in the woods when its minus 20 degrees with strong wind so he doesnt bark?

Joe P, I lived in Alabama during an extremely dry summer, and would occationally run dogs in 90+ degree temps for short periods. Although I wouldnt reccomend running dogs in those conditions it can be done. It wasnt head high running, but the dogs could keep somewhat of a race going. Some of these same dogs in minus 20 degree weather couldnt smell a jumped rabbit. Yes, there are some similarities, but fewer dogs can run in the far extreme cold. Im wanting to hear about the dogs that are on the very extreme of the nose spectrum and how to produce that.

Joe, thats not to say Im not interested in your thoughts on the idea. I just wanted to clarify, that unless a person has run their hounds in sub zero temps with old snow and wind that our concept of cold nose may be different. Certainly there are dogs with better noses than others, but what about the ones that can run when the other dogs cant smell anything.

Kurt, Im still waiting for a pup out of that gyp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!How long does a guy have to wait........? Ill bet its cold up there thismorning......keep in touch.... dave

Larry G · Post by **Larry G** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:52 am

Years ago I looked at a young bitch that was for sale by HOF beagler JW Kidd. We ran her some and he commented that she had just about the best nose he had seen. So, why is she for sale? He said she is kind of a dumb bitch, don't give her nothing to figure out. I bought her anyway and found out the hard way he knew a lot more than I did.

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:03 am

We have all seen the babbling idiots that wander around the woods barking at every blade of grass.....Lets talk about the dogs with GREAT noses that could run in any conditions even when other dogs couldnt, but yet didnt have any extra barks when conditions were good. I have never seen one, so where are they all hiding. Ive judged numerous trials, I run dogs several days a week inviting anyone that has a dog to show, I raised numerous dogs, I run in every condition imaginable to explore the limitations of the beagle. I cant find what some of you state is possible to create. Is it one in a million, if so who has one of these dogs and what was it produced by. Can it be reproduced or is it a fluke?

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:19 am

You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

Brains and Desire are two different things and qualities. You may have a smart dog, but a hound's "desire to hunt" won't make it seem dumb to be out on a cold day reguardless the temp...

Now if you've kept him in a 70deg. house, it might be more difficult for him to concentrate on his business on the colder days and his endurance may suffer somewhat, but true desire will overcome alot thats not been acclimated for and the hound will still try...