Dogs going bad after age 3

[mybeagles]

Good post Gus, that's more of what I was getting at......If a dog is ruined from too much running or pack pressure, you dont have much of a dog. The great ones rise to the occation and just keep getting better, the weaker ones fall apart and develop every imaginable fault.....We have gone away from breeding dogs to run the track in exchange for dogs that run the front.

You will go through tons and tons of dogs to find fast hard hitting dogs that control the line.....if you dont agree your head is in the sand. Ive only seen two and unfortunately neither of them were mine.

To ask around, everyone thinks they own 1 or 2 of these special dogs but after you watch them run you realize its just not the case.

[SMITTY1233]

Good post Gus, that more of what I was getting at......If a dog is ruined from too much running or pack pressure, you dont have much of a dog. The great ones rise to the occation and just keep getting better, the weaker ones fall apart and develop every imaginable fault.....We have gone away from breeding dogs to run the track in exchange for dogs that run the front.

You will go through tons and tons of dogs to find fast hard hitting dogs that control the line.....if you dont agree your head is in the sand. Ive only seen two and unfortunately neither of them were mine.

So are you saying that the dog that runs 2-4 in a pack works the inside, gets the tough checks is not a suitable dog? To me that is what I am looking for more so than a dog that can flat out get on top and stay there with the line between his legs? Why because I think they are easier to find than the one you describe..... I would rather have a pack of four dogs that exchange the front work the checks right, are content with running the line no matter who has the front, then wading through a handful of hounds to try and find the one that hits it hard and gets it done right... I agree they are few and far between, but I think the other ones come at much higher percentage with similar accomplishment in the field....

[mybeagles]

Smitty, those dogs are suitable for most guys if cometition is not the objective. If your looking for competition dogs that can also get the job done rabbit hunting, these dogs are not suitable.....

I dont run much competition, but I am competetive when running with my buddies and wont be satisfied to have the dog thats always running 3rd or 4th.....Im also not satified with a dog running the front that's causing the race to be disrupted either.......that results in me not being satisfied with very many dogs......thats why I go through so many, and I dont plan on stopping till I get that dog......

[SMITTY1233]

I know of a pretty good rabbit dog I belive he is a HOF rabbit champion that is pretty content on running 2-4 in a pack but you better not fumble, or miss because if you do you will be left standing there with your tail wagging sniffing his rearend as he takes the check out from underneath you... I don't think that its you can't be competitve with those dogs but you might not be able to roll off 9 or 10 wins in a row like a dog that you saw consistently a couple years ago.... So I think it may be more a personal standard issue which is good, as long as you know what you like and your strive hard to find it there isn't anything wrong with that... I am more conservative and think in trying to find that dog that you may get more faulty ones that I really can't stand than if I was looking for your middle of the pack dog.... I guess I am more afraid to swing and miss than you are and try to play the percentages more....

[gus]

What I am talking about is the same as you Smitty. I once owned a bitch that when just starting she had an uncanny knack for running straight down the line. While she was young she had enough speed to stay with the faster dogs. But as she aged she would just follow the pack as long as there was scent. If the pack overran or went off the line she woud keep it going. I once had a male, Gay Elvis on top with Northfield breeding on the bottom. I remember seeing him at about a year old, running with the pack. The pack would go right, in full cry, yet this male would go left, looking back at the other dogs as he continued to run the line. I sold him to a Hare Hunter in Wiconscin because I did not like the way he hunted. The guy in Wisconcin must have been impressed because he called about twelve years later, after the dog died, wanting another like him.

[SMITTY1233]

I would say I run 60% cottontail and rarely do I ever gun them, 40% hare and when running them I am always gunning them. I prefer a group of dogs that have minimal losses as a hunter. The way I view competiton is if my dogs that suit my hunting needs fit into a trial format great!!! if they don't so be it.... I was pretty successful with a male in competition in limited trials but he no longer suited what I was looking for in trying to put together the ultimate hunting pack... He went down the road and finished in UKC and is very close in AKC to my knowledge. Its just been my expierence that it is a lot easier to find a dog that will run 2-4 in a pack and do it right than it is to find that dog that can own the front, hold it down and do it right.... When running I want to run 3-5 hounds at a time, I want them all to work together to make it an enjoyable hunting expierence for all hunters with us that day... Enjoyable to me is steady pressure on the game we are persuing with mininmal losses.... Dogs that create there own checks by overrunning drive me bonkers and you see that a lot in trials these days... I don't think all these dogs are rough but there are several other factors that go into I'm sure....

[swing]

I think it has all to do with inbreeding and line breeding.

[mybeagles]

Swing, obviously your trying to get me going again! But I wont disagree with your post.....

[swing]

I was just trying to help you get to the point, some had touched on it and kinda tickled your fancy, I just called your spade a spade to help you get out in the open what you were getting at.
Dont beat around the bush, just tell us how you really feel.
I dont feel that way myself.
Tony has a dog he bred from a half brother half sister cross that is probably a good a dog as I have seen, several on here have seen him run he is in the ARHA Hall of Fame at 3 1/2 yrs old GrRch.
Not that, that means he is a world beater but I sure like him.
Well I am done I just thot I would help you get to the point.

[mybeagles]

Those who know me, know that Im not afraid to give my opinions or voice them. I am however objective enough to know that others have good advice and ideas that they have gained through years of experience. That was the purpose of this thread. If I wanted to address inbreeding and poor outcrosses as the cause of locked in poor traits I would have worded it that way. You have to stop drinking so much cool-aid swing.....

[Adam M. O'Donnell]

I know of a litter a buddy of mine rasied. 4 of the pups started young... running nicely at 4 - 5 months old. One of the males started late for whatever reason. Today at a year and a half old... the young male who started late will out perform the littermates that started early. The ones that started early, plained off at a certain point, and some even went through a "stupid" spell.
I wonder how much of what your refering to is just a "stupid" spell? And has anyone ever experienced a slacker coming back to what they once were?
I personally feel that alot of what we see in "slacker" young dogs. Are a result of their owners putting too much pack presure on them when they needed to be run solo! Or simply run them too often with faster dogs.

How many times have you seen pups start out with tremendous hunt... only to be left in a pen too long. And now they just stand there looking around... listening for a pack mate to jump! Beaglers don't always use their brains!

[mybeagles]

I have never had a quick starting, hard hunter just quit hunting....they dont all mature into the great dogs, but if they hunted hard early they seem to always hunt hard. As for dogs that start late, (after 9 months old), I wouldnt know because I dont fool with them past that point if they wont start. Sounds like some of you have had some success with late starting dogs.....

What Im referring to is a couple different dogs I run with that were very dominating from 18 month to about 3 or 4 and then all of a sudden they turn into complete fools....back track, ghost running.....No these dogs didnt do it at young age and just didnt get caught.....It seems odd to me that they would colapse under pack pressure at 3 or 4 years old when they have been so strong.

If you dont know what I mean, go run with some FC that finished a year or two ago....not all of them, but certainly some will look real bad.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

MYBEAGLES
THAT IS INTERESTING ,I HAVE GIVEN A LOT OF DOGS AWAY BETWEEN 1 YEAR AND 18-MOS.AND RUN WITH THEM THE FOLLOWING SEASON AND WONDER WHAT WAS I THINKING.THAT PUP TURNED OUT OK.BUT I CAN'T RECALL ONE THAT FELL APART AFTER AGE 3 WITH ONE EXCEPTION.A FRIEND HAD A GOOD DOG .AND DIDN'T GET TO HUNT IT FOR --2--SEASONS AND IT WAS REALY OFF IT'S GAME FOR AWHILE BUT DID COME AROUND .VERY GOOD TOPIC,,,,,,,,,,,

KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Hatfield]

An old grade dog I had once upon a time ran the front of almost everything he was put on the ground with and did it right straight up the gut. I ran him with an 18mo old male when he was 7 and had lost some foot. It was no good for him at all! The young dog came out of the 2nd check with it and left the old man. Ther old dog shut off tring to stay up. Next check the old dog got 3or4 barks in before he shut off again then somewhere in the straight away the old male fell out.
He wouldn't run with another dog for 3 or 4 weeks. I even tried to run him with an old gyp that he had ran with all his life, and he still wouldn't pack. He would just fall out and go find his own rabbit or hang out with me.
I loved the old male owned him all his adult life and killed a truck load of rabbits in front of him. I gave him to a friend that just getting in and he loves him, but the dog isn't right. i have cought him laying lines and rerunning old tracks since.

Go figure, Hatfield

[bill (flint river )]

sounds like he just blew up hatfield. i have never had one but a friend did have a beagle that did almost the same thing as yours. i beleave some dogs are so competive that they cant stand slowing down, or getting beat by another hound. just my guess.