heres a gooden for ya..

[PREACHERS KENNEL]

ok u got a dog running deer judge knows its a deer he seen it ..ok now another dog has harked into dog A lets call him. so dog B harks in goes to the dog smells the scent leaves him dog A barks again and moves on more DOG B harks in again ,,, this repeats itself a few times they cover maybe 200 yards a time of 10-15 passes by i guess. ur the judge how did u handle this?? scrath the deer runner is a given what do u do with dog B??scratch or not >?? he never barked ......read ur rules and reply ......just thought this might make for some good learning for us all!

[Chuck Terry]

Haven't read the rules (I believe you run Little Pack - don't you?) lately but I am pretty sure the judge is going to call him off game too!!!!!!!!!!!! My friend used to shock his trial dogs until they returned to him on a deer race because he had taken several off game penalties for situations like you describe where a dog is obviously not running the deer track but is tagging along with one that is. I am 99% sure the PP rules state that a dog does not have to open to be DQ'ed - going with the others without returning once he has checked them is enough. I do NOT want my beagles AFRAID of deer. I might tone them or nick them for tagging along but I am not going to light mine up for it and risk him quitting everytime they encounter a deer or not wanting to harken to a packmate. I will just risk the off-game call once in a blue moon!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Be sure to give us the answer if others do not know for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BrewerMo]

Well, according to the rules dog B is not scratched. The problem I have with the way this rule is enforced is. Most people will scratch any dog that does not return back to where they were origionaly hunting. Wich isn't the proper call from what I understand. It says the hound must return to rabbit hunting not the hound must return to where it was rabbit hunting. I believe this is a problem that happens alot......

[doubleb]

the way i would call it if dog b went check dog a one time goes back to hunting i wouldnt scatch him but if he continually goes back to the line i would probably scratch him

[Lynn Perkins]

Both A and B scratched.Dog can hark in and return to hunting for a rabbit.Rules doesn't say he can keep harking in,and 200 yds is alot of harking.

Now if i read this wrong set me straight,way i read it he has one chance to hark in and return to hunting for a rabbit.

[BrewerMo]

It sounds to me like dog A didnt drive the deer out giving alot of mouth ( just mouth here and there) I would think each time dog A would bark, dog B would go to check then return to hunting. If you have a dog that never had to be broke off a deer but harks in when going to a dog or pack of dogs when running but doesnt actually run a deer it shouldn't be scratched. Just my openion...

[J.C. Blair]

From the way the scenario reads. Dogs A & B should be scratched.

[Lynn Perkins]

Seen'em scratched for running along with lets say dog A and never gave mouth but never returned to hunting either.
Are you saying Ryan Dog B hasn't realized Dog A is running a deer because he's scatter barking?(my opinion he knew it wasn't a rabbit after first time he checked him)

Rule says can hark in and then return to hunting(way i read it he has 1 chance to hark and leave it),now me personnelly dont care where it returns to hunting as long as he/she dont go back to deer runner.
this is my opinion,if i'm reading rule wrong,correct me.I could be wrong in how im reading it.

[Willow Creek Kennels]

I SCRATCH A & B IN THAT SITUATION AND NEVER THINK TWICE ABOUT IT!!

[BrewerMo]

To me, I would think a dog that hasn't been broke off deer or any other off game for that matter smells one, he isn't going to think nothing about it when he does, if he's naturally straight. And if he or she honers another dog it will probably keep going back looking for a rabbit track. How many times do you see a ghost tracking dog run one thats not there and the other dog or dogs go check it out? I know it varries from dog to dog, but from what I have seen they will usually go check them a few times before they learn to ignore them. I would think this sittuation would be the same. Im not sure about the rule but I don't believe it says dog B can only go one time so I guess it would depend on how you would interpret(sp?) it. I would sure feel prety bad about scratching a dog for off game that wouldn't run it...........
But to each their own...
P.S. You guys have been at this stuff alot longer than me so shoot away with your oppinions so I can pick your brains..........(Not Intended for Blair because I know he doesn't have............well I better leave it at that)

[J.C. Blair]

You are gonna pay for that Brewer, I will see you soon enough, little man

[Lynn Perkins]

To me, I would think a dog that hasn't been broke off deer or any other off game for that matter smells one, he isn't going to think nothing about it when he does, if he's naturally straight.

How many judges would know this,or should it matter.Don't get me wrong about how i think on this matter,i don't like scratching hounds(got to go by the rule) but more then once of harking in,at that distance dog B would be considered running off.

Here's the rule from little pack,copied and pasted you read it.Now way i see it dog has one time to return to rabbit hunting,like i said how I read it.

If the hound runs major off game. The judge does not have to see the off game to disqualify the hound. A hound shall be barred from all competitions in ARHA licensed hunts for one year if he/she runs off game 3 times in a calendar year. It is not the intention of this rule to penalize the hound that is merely harking in on another hound, smells around, and then immediately returns to rabbit hunting. If the hounds are running off game, the judge can stop the chase at any time but can take at least 10 minutes before he/she disqualifies any hound. When there is a question as to whether the hounds are running off-game or not, the handler cannot scratch his/her hound to prevent the judge from disqualifying his/her hound and turning it in for running off game. If the handler scratches his/her hound under these circumstances, the hound will be turned in for running off game. Major off game is described as deer, fox, coyote, elk, moose, antelope, wolf, bobcat, cougar, bear, wild hogs, wild goats and wild sheep

[Bev]

If the hound runs major off game. The judge does not have to see the off game to disqualify the hound.

I've never felt good about this rule. If UKC won't score a rabbit unless it's seen, why should any format SCRATCH a dog on something they haven't seen? If UKC's rule on off-game is the same, then it's wrong, too. I can see where a single judge with an agenda could easily "produce" a deer, and it can't be contested.

A hound shall be barred from all competitions in ARHA licensed hunts for one year if he/she runs off game 3 times in a calendar year.

And this is the reason an off-game call should not be given lightly. Too easy to eliminate your competition for HOY, and the black mark is a hard hit on the dog's chances for HOF points later.

It is not the intention of this rule to penalize the hound that is merely harking in on another hound, smells around, and then immediately returns to rabbit hunting. If the hounds are running off game, the judge can stop the chase at any time but can take at least 10 minutes before he/she disqualifies any hound.

Great in theory, but rarely practiced. In my past experience, all dogs that went were immediately scratched, even if they only went a few yards. Time was never given to see if a hound would pull off. It's a great rule if you could get judges to do it, but the fear of possibly having to run dogs down off a deer usually results in the casualty of innocent dogs never really given the chance to check and refuse.

When there is a question as to whether the hounds are running off-game or not, the handler cannot scratch his/her hound to prevent the judge from disqualifying his/her hound and turning it in for running off game. If the handler scratches his/her hound under these circumstances, the hound will be turned in for running off game.

This was good up to the point where the dog gets penalized for the trialer's actions. How can you rightfully mark a dog if it didn't technically run a deer? Hit the handler instead. If he does this twice in a year, bar him from running ANY of his dogs for a year from the last offense.

Major off game is described as deer, fox, coyote, elk, moose, antelope, wolf, bobcat, cougar, bear, wild hogs, wild goats and wild sheep

Wait a minute. I don't see cows on this list. Does that mean the time I was taken to a cow pasture and my dog was scratched for barking at a cow coming at her was probably a wrong call?

LOL, I know this looks like I'm just hammering on the format, but I'm not. I had some of my best fun in Little Pack. I've just always hated how this rule was written and executed "most" of the time.

[BrewerMo]

Lynn, I have and did read the rule before I posted the first time. To me the dogs red describes is doing exactley what the rule says it is trying not to scratch. I feel alot of people need to learn that if theres an off game race durring a trial and there is a dog that doeasnt come right back to you and stand at your feet doesnt mean its running the off game. Happenes ALOT and It aint right. No where does that rule you posted say it only has once chance to check it out.

[PREACHERS KENNEL]

well i thought this might provoke some thought lol.here is some more of what ahppened the judge seen the deer before the dogs took it. he seen it again as the dog continued running it , the dogs wasnt broke down alot but wasnt burning either.dog c in this scenario went to the spot where dog A firstbarked and went to hunting else where i was proud cause that was my dog !!! YEA!! dog B continued to hark in however never bark ,would leave him only to come right back at next bark which never really gave dog B a chance to seperate hisself very far from dog A .given he had 200 yards or so to leave even tho he didnt bark i woulda had to scrath him as he never returned to rabbit hunting .. BREW. break ur dog and u wont have the problem hopefully .. this is a sad situation and i hate scratching dogs but u would to here even tho i would feel bad about it.!just my opinion!