Gentics-Gun Dog Beagle

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:48 pm

laal and Chris: The principles behind the inheritance of coat color and that of scenting ability are the same. There are just more loci involved with the hounds scenting ability as it applies to running rabbits.

Genetics is only half of the equation though. Genetics provides only the potential. That is, what the hound could be if it were to reach it's peak potential.

Every hound is the product of approxamatly 50% heredity and 50% environment. The envoronment, by that I mean everything the hound will ever come in contact with or experiance, will either help the hound reach it's peak or prevent the hound from ever reaching it's peak.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:57 pm

Yes Steve, you can have thousands of dominant and recessive genes in the same dog. Not sure about the dew claws. Do you mean on the back feet. I think I read somewhere that it is an incomplete dominant like the ticking pattern on hounds. That mode of inheritance will act like a dominant when paired with certain genes and a recessive when paired with certain other types of genes. It is not a recessive that turns dominant but just can't make up its mind. It only has to be on one chromosome to show in the dog. This is for back dew claws. As for the front ones, it appears to be recessive because as far as I know if you mate dew claws to dew claws, you always get dew claws. That means it can also be carried hidden and pop out when it pairs with another dew claw gene, which would be 1 from each parent. Will say that in the hound world, a cold nose is a nose that can detect scent in less than ideal conditions. Those conditions may be caused by aging of the track, severe types of weather such as dryness, extreme heat, extreme cold, rain, fog, wind and snow. It is a nose that is much better than average in the breed. Just as 20/20 vision is considered normal, some people have better than 20/20 vision. I have 8 in my right eye as did Ted Williams and was said partly responsible for his hitting talent. A cold nose can give a dog a big advantage all things being equal.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:36 pm

Steve I thought about it further and don't know about the front claws. If you want to learn about breeding dogs, don't listen to heresay on a Beagle board. Go get a book on the subject written by people who are qualified to teach about it. Good Luck!!!

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 12:03 am

Laal,
Read my post again, it is, the way it is.
In Chris's case, the hare will feed through out the night. There will be many old trails from her travels in feeding. On a good scent, in the morning hunt when the hare is in her day bed, a hare hound will cut through these old trails, keeping his mouth shut, determining what scent there is available and testing it for increasing intensity. Upon finding her seat, which most times she will have already made her escape from, he will proclaim the start and the chase is on.
Now, on a poor scenting morning, those night trails may hold little, if any scent at all but a good hare hound will also use it's eye's when searching and put them to good advantage along with his experience of learning the hare and her ways, to make a find.
The hound is determining what amount of scent he has to work with, according to the conditions of the day. Yesterday's night trail, on a good scenting day, may be today's hot line, in very poor scenting. The hound has to determine and adjust by the day, if not by the hour, sometimes.
The hound with a cold(or big) nose will be able to continue on with the weaker scenting conditions but it has realized, this is the best there is , for this day. The medium or lesser nosed hound will find it difficult to continue as the weakness of the scent has made him unsure of himself and any further decline in the scent leaves him at a loss.
The hound must have the brains to determine conditions and make adjustments for them, along with the gifts in proper proportion to carry him along...Patch

Lefgren-Lane · Post by **Lefgren-Lane** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 12:42 am

Rear dew claws are recessive. All tn/wh, lemon/wh etc. beagles have a recessive pair that does not allow the primary color (blanket color) to be expressed. Primary colors Black. Blue (the dilution of the black), Chocolate (liver to some), and Lilac (some call gray) (the dilution of the chocolate). Eye, nose color, etc. corresponds to primary coat color. Black blanket black nose, chocolate blanket eraser colored nose, blue a slate colored nose and lilac will be kind of a purple color or eraser slate. The blues, chocolates, lilacs etc will have what some will call a lighter eye color or shade, example amber or hazel. Pink noses on tn/wh hounds etc. with a brown eye is often "called a snownose" in some breeds. Sometimes they will change to darker in warm weather. We have had tn/wh bitches with black noses and brown eyes have thier nose turn pink after a litter and remain so for the remainder of theri life. Males noses that have turned pink as they age etc. A tn/wh hound with an eraser colored nose and a lighter eye may be just a chocolate without the blanket, a lemon/wh with lighter eyes and a slate nose is a blue without its blanket. Ticking is dominant, no ticking is the double recessive expression of teh T locus.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:56 am

S.R.Patch wrote:In Chris's case, the hare will feed through out the night. There will be many old trails from her travels in feeding. On a good scent, in the morning hunt when the hare is in her day bed, a hare hound will cut through these old trails, keeping his mouth shut, determining what scent there is available and testing it for increasing intensity. Upon finding her seat, which most times she will have already made her escape from, he will proclaim the start and the chase is on.
Now, on a poor scenting morning, those night trails may hold little, if any scent at all but a good hare hound will also use it's eye's when searching and put them to good advantage along with his experience of learning the hare and her ways, to make a find.
The hound is determining what amount of scent he has to work with, according to the conditions of the day. Yesterday's night trail, on a good scenting day, may be today's hot line, in very poor scenting. The hound has to determine and adjust by the day, if not by the hour, sometimes.
The hound with a cold(or big) nose will be able to continue on with the weaker scenting conditions but it has realized, this is the best there is , for this day. The medium or lesser nosed hound will find it difficult to continue as the weakness of the scent has made him unsure of himself and any further decline in the scent leaves him at a loss.
The hound must have the brains to determine conditions and make adjustments for them, along with the gifts in proper proportion to carry him along...Patch

That about sums it up Patch.

Still trying to give 'nose' a bump up in breeding without losing other desired traits. Turns out to be quite an undertaking.

Incidentally, that Rusty Patch, that I think you're familiar with, threw some cold-nosed hounds that I haven't seen the equal to yet. I never saw Rusty himself run (that I can remember), but we owned 3 or 4 off him that could flat get it done, and the brains to go with it. Not the fastest or the prettiest, but there weren't many/any days they didn't run; and that's what it's all about.

Was dumb enough not to think we needed more than one dog at a time back then to gun over, so we never even thought about having pups. Truth was we didn't because the one dog just ran hare every day we hunted. Didn't think dogs like that weren't always going to be available. When the last one died that was it and I haven't quite been able to replace it in whole. Dumb, dumb, dumb -- we live and learn.

laal · Post by **laal** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 9:14 pm

This is what makes all these q&a boards so great.

I like a big nose dog. I don't like a dog that opens on a cold trail. You can have the big nose dog that will not open on a cold trail.

I know what you are saying about working a scent on a bad day, my big nose dog will open on a cold line after she has been down a long time and has not smelled anything. But she only does that to call the other dogs and let them know she at least has a scent and wants help getting the rabbit up. I don't like that but no dog is perfect?

steve · Post by **steve** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 9:34 pm

Bob yes I was refering to rear dews,and every time I find a good book on breeding I buy it,lot of times it's hard to grasp some things they talk about that's why I asked you,seems you try to put things into prespective so the simple guy like me can understand thanks.Now for next question is it reasonable to say chop mouth hotter nose and bawl mouth colder nose or is this a old wives tale.Steve

ACOMEAU · Post by **ACOMEAU** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:45 am

This is a very interesting post and I think I have most of it soaked up. After reading these post I am even more convinved that line breeding is the only way to go to get what you want in a line of dogs. Wether its nose, color, speed ect ect.. or all of the above. In order to increase the odds of getting a like result, breeding related dogs with the same traits and then culling hard is the way to go. The reason I say this is because my family tree is a perfect example of outcrossing(Thank god). My great grandfather(french) was married to a full blooded indian woman. My grandfather had dark hair, and was dark as well as his siblings. He married my grandmother who also had some indian blood (1/4). There children (my father and siblings) were all black hair, brown eyes, and dark complected. My dad married my mother who was irish and scottish. My brother and I have light brown hair and blue eyes. My wife is blond with blue eyes. Our children are blond with blue eyes and fair skin. In just four generations of outcrossing there is no sign of my great grandmother.

Doggin · Post by **Doggin** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:46 pm

Bob, above when replying to Joe West you said that you had a list of canine traits indicating which were recessive or dorminant traits as a result of research of over 10,000matings. Would it be possible to obtain a copy of your list or the source that you got it from. I have tried a search. and have gotten plenty of data, but nothing yet that fine tunes as the list you have appears to. thanks for any assistance. Enjoy your posts as they generally are very revealling.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 5:26 pm

Anyone wanting to know how to get this info, put your email address on here and I will tell you how to get it.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 5:39 pm

Even better, get a copy of HOW TO BREED DOGS by DR. LEON WHITNEY. The list is in there. While your at it get a copy of THE NATURAL METHOD OF DOG TRAINING by DR. LEON WHITNEY. He was at CORNELL University and was a researcher and a coon hunter and dog breeder. Greatest hound man I ever knew and knew more about hunting dogs than any person living or dead. Period. He even knew more than Joe West. LOL Good luck!

laal · Post by **laal** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:44 pm

Bob does Mr Whitney belive its 50-50 on the heredity, enviroment?

I was saying 80-20 but I have been giving a lot of thought to what a beagle has to go through. I think Joe might be right on when he says 50 50.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:10 pm

I don't know about Dr Whitney but with me it is about 90 10. I use to do all that stuff with pups trying to give them oppurtunities to learn. Then I figured out that it was pointless with my family. i found it was mostly genetic if man will keep out of the way. By that I mean don't mess around with them too much and screw them up. The last few yaers I just leave them in the pen until they are 5 months old. I let them out some to play but not too much because they learn that the pen is home and become happy with it. When I was always letting them out, they would come to expect it and get rank in the pen and bark etc. Now They don't bark and are happy. Mine start early so I just take them across the road to my training ground when thay are 5 months and they do the rest. I do teach them to handle by hiding from them when training them BEFORE they start. It is bred into them to be a rabbit dog and if you will leave them alone and not mess with their heads, they turn out good. I know some families may need other techniques. I am not interested in those families. With me, it is all genetic. Great dogs are born, not made. Even handling is genetic. I always have one or two in each litter that won't let me out of their site until they are 4 or 5 months old. They will get right up next to me when I let them out to run. If my family gets too independant, I just breed these dogs and put more handling in them because there is a balance. . I have a book about human twins that were raised apart and the habits are very similar, even the brand of cigs they smoke etc. If it is in them genetically, there is no training to it. Sometimes, I don't even start them intil they are 8 or 9 months old and by the second or third trip they are running like they should. I repeat--this may not work on all families or types of Beagles, but on mine it works slicker than a roosters hind leg!!!

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:33 pm

here we have the classic psychological question! Is the environment happening to the dog, or is the dog happening to the environment. The environment does play a role in a dogs training, but is simply the catylist that brings out the genetic traits of the dog. Each dog has a differant set of genetic TENDENCIES and for those to show he uses the environment as a stimulus. Just remember when you are training, that you can always take the genetic tendencies out of them, but you can't put it in them. Some would have you believe that training is very important if you are to have a good dog. That may be so with a dog that doesn't have the proper behavior tendencies. Some will also have you believe that you can't breed a preferance to run certain game. These are the guys that have deer runners and want to justify it by saying no dog can be born straight. More power to them. Just don't try to convince coon hound breeders of that. They have seen it done and so have I. If you don't have the genetics to have a born rabbit dog, I assume you will say a good dog is 50-50 because he needs training to make it and the right opportunities. I would like for someone to tell me one thing a rabbit dog needs to be TAUGHT that can not be bred into it or out of it.. Here is your chance to argue Joe, but be careful because I have a toothache and am in no mood to mess around with armchair theories.

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