explain this one

[danny vansickle]

you have a 4 dog cast, dogs a,b,c,and d are pounding a rabbits hind end off,four handlers are on a paved road watching for traffic,the rabbit crosses the paved road and enters a thicket the dogs cross behind it and break down,no rabbit comes back across,yet dog a runs back across road giving mouth across the same line they had just ran,dog a pulls dog b and c with him but b and c do not give mouth and d stays in original check area in thicket.dog a continues to "backtrack" about fifty yards into field and breaks down,b and c still have not given mouth.after about three or four minutes dog b opens up about thirty yards from where a broke down,a and c joins b in driving rabbit and pulls d out of original check area across road.cast ends.judge does not minus a for backtracking,he awards a check to b and also a minus for pulling d out of original check area.

[mike crabtree]

Sounds like you own dog D.

I hope all Judges know better than that.

I cant see how he gave a minus for pulling then turn around and gave the same dog a check in the same area, unless he felt the rabbit that crossed the road wasnt the original rabbit.

I was on several casts that had 8 or more rabbits.

[JimM]

I think I may have been the judge of that cast. If so, I see now why you always feel like you either got cheated or got a rotten judge. Every time you don't win, you get mad because of everything the judge did wrong. It seems to me like you can't watch a cast, and know what really happened.

If you would have asked, I would have gladly explained why your dog only got one check. I would also have told you that he never stopped barking the entire time they were running. A lot of the barking was coming up behind the dog actually getting the check. Instead you chose to get mad, insult me and my dogs, and tell everyone how you got cheated by a rotten judge.

The bottom line--you got smoked in that cast and the only thing you can remember is one small part, where you didn't understand what happened, even though I explained it to the cast in detail.

If you want to win, I would suggest you quit looking for all of the bad in ARHA and the judging. The people involved in LP are the best in the world. Try to enjoy trialing.

[danny vansickle]

YEH YOU WAS THE JUDGE,I WAS NOT LOOKING TO SLAM ANYOME,I JUST EXPLAINED WHAT HAPPENED AND THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE AT THAT CAST THAT WILL AGREE THAT IS EXACTLY THE WAY IT WENT DOWN,AND MY DOG WAS C I AIN'T SAYING THERE WAS ANY CHEATING AND AS FOR ALL THESE PEOPLE THAT SAY I BITCH EVERYTIME I LOOSE THAT IS A TON OF CRAP,IF THERE IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS IN A CAST AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY OR HOW THE JUDGE CAME TO HIS CONCLUSION,I AM GOING TO ASK THE JUDGE HOW HE MADE HIS DECISION.AND AS FAR AS YOUR DOGS HISTORY SPEEKS FOR ITSELF YOU AND YOUR DAD HAVE ALWAYS HAD GOOD DOGS THERE IS NO DENYING THAT ALL I HEARD WHEN YOU GUYS STARTED TRIALING AGAIN IS THAT WHEN YOU PULL A DOG OUTTA THE BOX YOU MEAN BUSSINESS AND THE DOG IS TOUGH.YES I GET UPSET SOMETIMES BUT WHEN I FEEL I WAS CHEETED OR A MISTAKE WAS MADE I WILL SPEAK UP.BUT IT DOES NO GOOD.EVERYBODY LOVES TAKING THEIR SHOTS AT ME,PREACHERS KENNEL CAN PUT JUDGING SCENERIOS ON HERE JUST LIKE I DID AND PEOPLE GIVE THEIR FEEDBACK AND NO-ONE SLAMS HIM ALL I HAVE TO DO IS PUT A POST UP AND THIS IS THE CRAP I GET.MY DOG DID GET BEAT THAT DAY SO WHAT ANY DOG CAN GET BEAT ON ANY GIVIN DAY,IF ALL HE DOES IS RUN AROUND BEHIND DOGS BARKING THAN HOW THE HELL DID HE GET WHERE HE IS IN THE HOY POINTS.I HAVE MET SOME GOOD GUYS FROM YOUR CLUB AND I HAVE NOTHING AGAISNST YOU EITHER.I WAS JUST PUTTING A SCENERIO OUT THERE TO LOOKFOR FEEDBACK,THATS IT.YOU MUST HAVE A GUILTY CONCIOS TO FIRE BACK THE WAY YOU DID.ANSWER ME THIS,WHY DID'T YOU MINUS YOUR BUDDIES DOG FOR BACTRACKING,AT THE TRUCKS YOUR EXACT WORDS WHERE"I COULD HAVE MINUSED GREEN FOR BACKTRACKING BUT I DIDN'T.WHY JIM?YOU GAVE MY DOG A CHECK ON A RABBIT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FEILD THAT WAS NOT THE ORIGINAL RABBIT THEY BROKE DOWN ON ACROSS THE ROAD.YOUR BUDDIES DOG BACKTRACKED OUT INTO THE FIELD,WE TOLD YOU THE RABBIT DID NOT CROSS WHEN YOU ASKED IT AND YOU GAVE THE DOGS TIME TO FIND A NEW RABBIT TO HONOR YOUR BUDDIES DOG AND WHEN MY DOG HIT THE NEW RABBIT YOU SAID TO ME IN A SMARTELIC TONE,"I GUESS YOU WANT THAT CHECK DON'T YA?"AND WHAT DID I SAY?I SAID "NO,THAT IS A DIFFERENT RABBIT"AND YOU IGNORED ME.YOU GAVE MY DOG A CHECK AND A MINUS AT THE SAME TIME AND HOW CAN YOU HONOR A DOG AND MINUS IT ON THE SAME ACT?THAT IS HOW IT WENT AND THE GIRL FROM LFJ KENNELS WILL AGREE.THAT IS THE HOEST TO GODS TRUTH AND IF YOU SAY DIFFERENT THAN LETS GET THE GIRL FROM LFJ TOGETHER WITH US SHE WILL COFIRM IT.THAT WHOLE CAST WAS A SHAMBLES.I COULD TYPE FOR A WEEK ON THE BULL THAT WENT DOWN THAT DAY IN SIXTY MINUTES.THAT ONE CAST SHOWED ME YOUR TRUE COLLORS.LIKE EVERYONE SAYS,YOU MAKE YOUR OWN RULES.TELL US WHY YOU DIDN'T MINUS JEFFS DOG THAT DAY JIM,AND TELL THE TRUTH!!!!!

[SilverZuk]

Three to four minutes pass it would usually be called a dead track and the dogs would be handled. The track ended in the thicket.

Dog A backtracks across the road, pulling two others (Dog B and Dog C) with it. The fourth dog (D) is still in the thicket. Dog B jumps a separate rabbit.

The judge should minus the dog that pulled the others out of the check.

Here is from the rule book:
Any hound that pulls other hounds away from the check area shall
receive minus 10 points. Example Hounds A, B, and C are
searching the area where the rabbit was lost for more than 15
seconds. Hound D is several yards away from the check area and is
barking, one, or more of the hounds (A, B, and C), hark in on
Hound D and the rabbit is not produced. Hound D receives a minus
10 points.

This is also from the rule book:
Any hound caught backtracking on a trail 50 feet or more shall be
minused 10 points every time it is observed backtracking this
distance. This backtracking does not have to be on different
rabbits.
** Definition of backtracking: When a hound is clearly running
and barking in the opposite direction on a line that has already
been run by a hound or hounds. Barking while returning to the
point of loss is NOT backtracking.

I guess in this case the track was not dead, because it had not been declared dead by the judge. So the second rabbit jumped was incidental and should not have been scored.
If they ran a second rabbit, in this case it probably should have been scored from the first check.

Here is what the rules say about a dead track:

The judge shall announce to the handlers when he/she has
determined that the track is dead and the chase ended.
2. When a track is declared dead by the cast judge, the hounds must
be moved a reasonable distance (50 yards) from the previous dead
track to ensure that a hound is not struck back in on a dead track;
or the judge can call a time out, have the handlers leash their
hounds and move to another area of the hunt site. In either
situation, the scoring has stopped on that track. If the judge has
called a time out he/she shall announce when the cast and scoring
have resumed.

[SilverZuk]

Those that may argue that the second rabbit was incidental and should not be scored.
Think about this situation if after the second rabbit was jumped, then Dog D (still in the thicket) worked out the check and continued to run the original rabbit.
The judge would have to score Dog D and the handlers would have to get their dogs in the race.

I think the thing to do would for the judge to call “Dead track. We have a different rabbit here and we are going to score from the first check.”

[JimM]

Danny,

I am not going to argue with you here on this board or anywhere else. It's the same old story. Every time you lose, you had a bad judge or you got cheated . . .

Running in hunts should be about having fun, and competing with friends. Having someone in a cast who gets cheated every time he loses is not much fun. I hope you find a way to lighten up and enjoy hunts.

[sammiller03]

wow .. thats intense,, makes my time in the field with my dogs and my friends seem priceless.

[danny vansickle]

JIM,WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION?I HAD NO INTENTION ON SLAMMING ANYONE,YOU STARTED THIS ARGUEMENT NOT ME.ALL I WANTED WAS FEEDBACK FROM OTHER HOUNDSMEN.YOU SEEN A CHANCE TO SLAM ME SO YOU STARTED IN ON ME,THAT IS WHY I DID NOT MENTION NAMES IN THE ORIGINAL POSTING.SILVERZUK DID A VERY GOOD JOB STATING THE RULES,THE TRACK WAS NOT CALLED DEAD.YOU OPENED THE CAN OF WORMS JIM,NOT ME!SO I ASK YOU AGAIN,WHY DID YOU NOT MINUS YOUR BUDDIES DOG FOR CLEARLY BACKTRACKING?WHY DID YOU GIVE MY DOG A CHECK AND A MINUS AT THE SAME TIME?MY DOG AND THE GIRL FROM LJS'S DOG SOUNDED ALIKE,AND WE WHERE JOKINGLY ARGUING ON EACH CHECK,BUT WHEN IT WAS ALL SAID AND DONE,NEITHER HER DOG NOR MINE GOT ANY CHECKS EXCEPT THE ONE IN QUESTION.NEEDLESS TO SAY,YOUR BUDDIES DOG WON THE CAST.SO I ASK AGAIN,WHY NO MINUS FOR BACKTRACKING?HOW DOES A DOG RECIEVE A CHECK AND A MINUS AT THE SAME TIME?YOU STARTED THIS SO FINISH IT.ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.YEH WHEN I FIRST STARTED TRIALING I WAS A LITTLE HOT HEADED,A TON OF PEOPLE,EVEN JEFF ALLEN HAVE COMENTED ON HOW I ACT LIKE A TOTAL DIFFERENT PERSON NOW,NO CURSING SCREAMING OR ANYTHING.I LOST MY COOL ONE TIME IN ASHLAND AND THAT WASN'T EVEN DIRECTED AT THE JUDGE.IF I FEAL SOMETHING HAPPENED THAT I DON'T AGREE WITH,OR UNDERSTAND,I WILL ASK THE JUDGE FOR AN EXPLANATION,IF THAT IS BEING A PROTESTER OR A SORE LOOSER,SO BE IT.A GOOD JUDGE WOULD JUDGE MY HOUND NOT ME.SO IF A JUDGE IS LETTING MY ACTIONS AFFECT HIS DECISION IN THE FEILD,THAN THAT JUDGE SHOULD NOT BE JUDGING,TRUE?THAT IS THE ONLY CAST YOU HAVE EVER BEEN INVOLVED WITH ME ON SO HOW IS IT "THE SAME OLD STORY"AS YOU PUT IT?IF WE ARE JUDGING PEOPLE ON THEIR PAST,WHY WAS YOUR CLUB SHUT DOWN?I GUESS YOU CAN'T ANSWER THAT EITHER.HUH.YOU WANNA MUD SLING FINE PAL.LIKE I SAID,I ONLY WANTED FEEDBACK,THAT IS IT.YOU BROUGHT IT TO THIS POINT,AND YOU STILL HAVE'T EXPLAINED YOU ACTIONS IN THAT CAST.I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH YOU,YOU STARTED THE BAD MOUTHING,NOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!YOU HAD NO PROBLEM CUTTING ME DOWN NOW THAT I TURNED IT AROUND ON YOU,YOU DON'T WANT TO ARGUE.IF THAT IS SO DON'T START ARGUEMENTS YOU OBVIOSLY CAN'T FINISH!!!!!!!!

[danny vansickle]

I think I may have been the judge of that cast. If so, I see now why you always feel like you either got cheated or got a rotten judge. Every time you don't win, you get mad because of everything the judge did wrong. It seems to me like you can't watch a cast, and know what really happened.

If you would have asked, I would have gladly explained why your dog only got one check. I would also have told you that he never stopped barking the entire time they were running. A lot of the barking was coming up behind the dog actually getting the check.

Instead you chose to get mad, insult me and my dogs, and tell everyone how you got cheated by a rotten judge.

The bottom line--you got smoked in that cast and the only thing you can remember is one small part, where you didn't understand what happened, even though I explained it to the cast in detail.

If you want to win, I would suggest you quit looking for all of the bad in ARHA and the judging. The people involved in LP are the best in the world. Try to enjoy trialing.

[SilverZuk]

Danny,
You and Jim might want to take this up in private messages.
Remember the judges are not perfect, and there are judgement calls.
I am new to judging, and learn about different situations when people post them. I am sure I will make my share of calls that people may not agree with. Some may be caused by the handlers not seeing what I saw, others may be my own error.

Take it easy on the judges, and most of all don't make it personal.
I have questioned judges about calls, some where judgement calls, some where because I didn't see what the judges saw, and some were bad calls. I try to leave it in the field and would be very reluctant to "air it out" on a public forum.

[danny vansickle]

AS FAR AS THE PART I QUOTED ABOVE,ALL I SAID TO YOU WAS"I MIGHT NOT BE A JUDGE,AND I MIGHT NOT KNOW EVERYTHING BUT DON'T TREAT ME LIKE I AM STUPID"AND THEN I SAID GET A GOOD JUDGE AND THROW YOUR DOGS DOWN WITH MINE.HOW IS THAT CONSIDERED BADMOUTHING YOU OR YOUR DOGS?AND AS FAR AS ME NOT BEING A JUDGE,THAT IS ABOUT TO CHANGE.I MAY BE FAT AND SLOW BUT I CAN GARANTEE I WILL BE FAIR.I WILL JUDGE THE HOUNDS NOT THE OWNER.IF EVERYONE WOULD DO THAT THIS CRAP MAY NOT HAPPEN AS MUCH.

[SilverZuk]

You might be posting about one of my judgement calls next week, don't make it personal.

Remember the pay that judges get isn't enough to run through the brush for an hour, and definitely not enough to take grief over.
If you will read the rules you will also read where it tells handlers to question/protest at the end of the cast. It implies that settle it in the field and leave it there unless you want to take it to the MOH at the club house.

Some hunts last much longer than they have to because judges aren't stepping forward, that is probably because people are giving them grief and it isn't worth the $10 or $20 you get for judging.

[danny vansickle]

IF YOU WILL READ THE ORIGINAL POSTING YOU WILL SEE,I DID NOT MAKE IT PERSONAL,HE DID,I KNOW I AM THE NEW KID ON THE BLOCK OR WHATEVER AND I WAS TOLD BY SOME OLDTIMERS THIS IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.HE MADE IT PERSONAL,I SAID NO NAMES,NO DATES CLUB NOTHING,WHY DIDN'T HE JUST SET BACK AND READ THE REPLIES?NO HE DID LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE DONE ME,STARTED TAKING THEIR SHOTS AT ME.I GUESS I AM NOT ALLOWED TO PUT POSTINGS UP LIKE THIS.I DON'T SEE ANYONE RAGGING ON ANYONE ELSE THAT POSTED JUDGING SCENERIOS TO GET FEEDBACK.WHAT IS THE DEAL?I TRY TO GET ALONG WITH PEOPLE.I TOOK A THRASHING BEFORE THE LIL WORLD,I STILL WENT OUT THERE AND NOONE WOULD COME UP AND BADMOUTH ME TO MY FACE,BUT A LOT OF GUYS COMMENTED ON WHAT PEOPLE WHERE SLAMING ME ON AND THEY ALL SAID THE SAME THING,THEY ARE JUST A BUNCH OF CHILDISH PEOPLE HIDING BEHIND FAKE NAMES AND SLAMMING ME.I DON'T AGREE WITH JIMS POSTINGS,BUT WHAT IS IN THE TOP LEFT HAND CORNER?HIS REAL NAME JUST LIKE MINE.LIKE I HAVE SAID TILL I AM BLUE IN THE FACE,ALL I WANTED WAS FEEDBACK,I DID NOT START THE MUDSLINGING.AND THAT IS A FACT IT IS IN BLACK AND WHITE JUST READ IT.I AM JUST AN EASY TARGET I GUESS.

[WrongsideRandy]

I agree with ya Danny! You made a post then the judge opened a can of worms and wouldnt answer your question......thats how they do it. Just hope he isnt a Chairman or lawyer....... LMAO

So did the dog really backtrack that far?

Take care,
Randy