question on dog hunt style

[JAW]

I think Scot struck the word, DESIRE. I will jump the equation DESIRE + BRAINS = ABILITY. If the dogs with ability have the oppurtunity to educate themselves they will.
IMO hunting STYLE is genetic.

Hatfield and Scott both have a good point. Genetics is what make a hound from the color of the coat to the voice it aquired even the conformation it has and the style of hunting it aquired all started from within the unseen genes that they carry from one generation to another.A hound can be a fine tune good hunting machine if it has aquired (1) the hunting genes;(2) time to express those genes a field;(3) proper nutrition and a good environment. Where do you think the term "known producer" come from.That hound has passed it genes and traits(hunting;looks;sound;color ect...)on to his or her offsprings.Look at Rev John Parks book on breeding better beagles chapters 8 & 9.He says all the training,feeding,and good care can only improve a hound up to a certain point which has been predetermined by the birth cells. Read alot talk a little. John Watson

[tommyg]

I remember this discussion,I agree with Chris on it. I also see more brush busting hunt from my hounds by paying attention to the pups I keep,how they hunt at a young age. I have no use for hounds that skirt the brush because around here its multiflorial rose and varous other nasty Sausage grinders. I also hunt Hare and run Hare hounds and they get the job done on them as well. I don't know what makes a great jump dog,it seems that they are born with it,but I do know that solo time will make a good hound great.

[Chris Spall]

Hunt Versus Search

Nature Versus Nurture

Are they born with it or is it developed. I'm not 100% sure. All I know is, we are all constantly looking for the dog that's just a NATURAL.

[jonnyringo]

I believe genetics plays a definitive role but I also believe a dog with desire and brains can be taught to please his master. Some of the more import attributes I look for in a dog is brains and desire, followed by loyalty. Loyalty being as important as the other two traits. I think speed is one thing that is difficult to control in a dog and that is where genetics plays a big role.....hare hound verses brace hound. You may get a brace hound to run a bit quicker packing him with faster dogs - probably be more difficult to get a hare hound to walk a line.

[whiteriver]

by running a hound solo u maximize what potential u have .From started to 2 years old i beleive it is crucial to solo a hound atleast 60% of the time if possible in order to get the most out of that hounds genetic potential.

As far as hunt goes i feel a dog should cover alot of ground quickly and effeciantly.Alot of our hounds hunt by "winding " and searching for body scent of a rabbit not just nosing around for an old feeder track...

it seems to me u have 2 kinds of dogs: dogs that hunts for tracks and dogs that hunt for rabbits .Both will jump rabbits but i consider the later to be superior .Another thing if u are hunting in a growed up pasture feild for example and u have clumps of multiflora rose a hound that sucks the ground and spends five minutes in every bush will get killed on strikes by a faster hunting hound who has a good enough nose to wind rabbits in those thickets .the same would apply in large weed feilds or fence rows etc....

i guess the important thing is that they hunt by whatever means makes the owner happy lol

mitch gould

[Larry G]

I think it (hard searching) is mostly an inherited trait and can not be coaxed out of lazy hounds that have no stomach for it regardless of training. I believe you can ruin a pretty fair thicket dog by running too much at night. The dog may start to range for scent instead.

A friend and i rabbit hunt with his SPO type dogs some, and we stomp up most of the rabbits ourselves. He feels a jump dog (body scent searcher) will spoil the continuity of the races. You kinda can't have it both ways. Like one of the guys said I haven't seen a good railroad bank jump dog since i was a kid, and that's been a long time.... and all of them were females.

[johny]

I'm not sure how you teach a dog to hunt any certain cover and how to hunt that cover. I thought you just took them to the field as much as possible to develop their genetic abilities to the fullest. If you could train a hound to hunt hard, you would certainly have a skill that noone else has. They have it or they don't, it is that simple. If they don't have it, then it is wise to spend time on one that does.

[jonnyringo]

I'm not sure how you teach a dog to hunt any certain cover and how to hunt that cover. I thought you just took them to the field as much as possible to develop their genetic abilities to the fullest. If you could train a hound to hunt hard, you would certainly have a skill that noone else has. They have it or they don't, it is that simple. If they don't have it, then it is wise to spend time on one that does.

Not toally true. You can encourage a dog and train a dog to do just about anything if the dog has brains. If you are not willing to spend the time with youir dog then you are correct and would be better off getting a started dog or one that starts easy. I bet some of the best dogs out there were trained by their handlers and hunt in a style that suits their handlers.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

TO ALL
I AGREE WITH ALL MOST ALL OF THESE POSTS,I HAVE SAW COTTONTAIL .HOUNDS AND HARE BRED HOUNDS HUNT IN A RUN AND HUNT RAIL ROAD BEDS AND FENCE ROWS.GENETICS IS THE FONDATION,, BUT WITH ANY HOUND I THINK THAT THE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH A HOUND IS RAISED AND HUNTED WILL HAVE A GREAT INFLUENCE ON THE FINAL PRODUCT.FOR EXAMPLE I HAVE A SOLID HARE BRED MALE ,THAT HUNTS ON THE RUN ON BIG STRIP MINES,BUT RARELY COVERS MORE THAN 100 YARDS FROM ME .BUT IF I HUNT A RAILROAD BED HE WILL STAY THERE ALSO.I HAVE A LOT OF NORTHWAY SPUR ,,AND T- REX BLOOD ,,THEY MOVE A LOT MORE IN THE OPEN FIELDS BUT WILL CRAWL THE DOZER PILES ALSO.BUT THE INPORTANT THING TO ME IS THEY ALL WILL DO IT ALL DAY,NOT JUST TILL LUNCH,ARE THEY EXCEPTIONS MABEY BUT THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO -----CULL------

KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[HatterasBob]

I've written volumes on this subject and just get poo-pooed. The majority of beaglers are old dogs (me included) and can't learn a new trick. I was the exception because I learned one a few years ago. It is very close to Frieda Karpan article in the Nov issue of TAB.

I challenge all of you that think it only genetics and don't start pups until at least 6 months old, to take a 12 week old pup and a San Juan rabbit and start the pup with it. I've had running pups (pounding up to 4 continuous hours) at 12 weeks old. ALL OF THEM HAVE OUTRAGEOUS HUNT!!!!!!!! Many are outstanding jump dogs. None of them walk the trails like you see at the trials. All of them are hare hounds! The hare hounds that everyone complains about, were trained on hare and a hare hound's hunt is to track a cold trail into a hot one. The only difference between hare and cottontail hounds is the speed and endurance, period! They are all rabbit dogs!

It's very easy to argue with a key board, get out from behind the computer and try it. It works.

Either I've got the best genetics in the country or there is something to starting pups early. I think it's the later, but if you guys think it's the former, I can live with that.

[gus]

"Either I've got the best genetics in the country or there is something to starting pups early. I think it's the later, but if you guys think it's the former, I can live with that.

Starting pups early has about as much bearing on the total dog as teaching a child to read at an early age. It's what happens after they learn

If teaching them to run early is the key, why are we paying those $200. stud fees? Many times the pup that starts latest is the best pup in the litter. Once the switch is flipped then the development starts. Starting early is fun and exciting but it has no effect on the final preduct.

Bob would you explain the scene and what happens when you turn a pack of hare bred dogs loose at a LP on Hare Trial. Then what happens at the first check?

When I turn my dogs loose they head for the nearest thick stuff and dive in. At the first check they are all as busy as bees trying to find the line then the race is on again.

[SilverZuk]

I agree with most, hunt and drive is genetic.
My dogs pretty much hunt just like their parents (or at least one of them). My dogs are very similar to their parents in hunt, speed, nose, brains, etc.

Hatteras,
I would like to someone take a litter and split it into two groups.
Start one group at 12 weeks, start the other half at 6 months.
Here is the kicker, socialize both groups the same and have them out and let them play.

I bet by the time they are 2 years old you could not tell the difference which ones started at 12 weeks. This is getting way off subject, but I have seen some potentially good dogs ruin because they stayed in a kennel and had no contact with other dogs or people until 6 months (other than feeding and watering). Just like anything, you get out what you put into them. It all starts at about 8-10 weeks old.

[Larry G]

What interests me more is will the Northway/T Rex stuff find a cottontail and keep it going.... if so I gotta get me some... or whatever Hatteras has.

[SilverRockBeagles]

my theory is:

first and foremost you must breed hounds with desirable traits, we all need to be working our best to make the breed reach its fullest potential, not to get off beagles but there are many old time coyote hunters including my father and grandfather that tell me time and time again the reason the got out of it after 30 years is because to many people are breeding the hunt out of the dogs and breeding for to much speed, to me a dog that is fast that has no hunt is no good, i think if were not careful the same could happen with beagles im not saying there is something wrong with fast dogs but people look at the details.

second is that without any training or field work at all you probably arent going to have a good rabbit hound so in my eyes its 3/4 breeding 1/4 training just my opinion.

[HatterasBob]

The last time we discussed this, a guy from KY that worked with race horses all his like, said that it was the race horse communities belief that in Thoroughbreds it is 1/3 genetics and 2/3 training.

If so, then why do they pay over a million bucks for stud fees. Because they want the best 1/3. The hours required to make a good dog, even at minimum wage would make it cost prohibitive. So start with the best you can and start them early.

Zuk, if you are right, then mine will arrive at that 2 year equivalance sooner.

Gus, go back to having your head in the ground! Please don't try it, I don't want helping you on my conscience.

Do you remember the articule that has been in the mags and on the boards talking about pups for military service (I think that is what it was). It said only certain pups were suitable, but then reseachers discovered that subjecting pups to 5 minutes of cold when they were 2-5 days old produced a greater number of suitable dogs. COLD is environmental, it is training not genetics. The learning process start at birth, not 6 months.

If you haven't tried it, HOW CAN YOU ARGUE THAT IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!!

Mark Twain once said "It is better to be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"