Breaking from running deer

Robert · Post by **Robert** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:32 pm

I Don,t even understand the problem .Its pretty simple In the south we run rabbits with rabbit dogs and deer with deer dogs never mix the two.I dont think im going to need me no remote control dog. We do like bob if he likes deer running he's a deer dog if he likes rabbits he is a rabbit dog. Never mix the two when breeding.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 3:55 pm

Phillip: Even young pups will fight the lead when it's put on them for the first time. They'll buck at it an try to pull away but that's just because it's a new thing to them. There's no real discomfort involved just the restraint that is forien to them. The quickest and best way to help them through that and get them to quit bucking at the lead is just to squat down and talk kindly to them. Most always when you do they will run right up to you and a bit of praise lets them know everything is fine. IN just a few minutes most are fine with the lead and will lead kindly wherever you want to go. The next thing they start is pulling at the lead because your going slower then they want to go or because they want to check an area that you don't want to walk thourgh. Only a stupid dog will continue to do this.

But that is a different thing then the reactions I sited. You will see these reactions in most hounds who have a problem of some sort such as manshy or gunshy, car shy, etc. but you will also see them in abused hounds and in some cases hounds who have suffered a traumatic event. Manshy is most often caused by a traumatic event but it can also be caused by improper socialization. Gunshy is also the result of a traumatic event, the hound gets the crap scared out of him. They are just different ways a hound acts after being traumatized.

Now here's something I don't have any experiance on regarding the shock collar but am interested in seeing at some point. Lets say we have a hound who has been shocked and if his packmates run a deer he runs and hides under the truck. I'm wondering what that hounds reaction might be if the rabbit is running along a trail behind some jumped deer. specifically I'm wondering what such a hounds reaction will be when the pack he is in that is running the rabbit hits that point in the trail where the rabbit scent and deer scent are together on the same line. I'm guessing that some will be uneffected, some will run mute till the deer turn away and some might run for the truck. I'm afraid I will never be exposed to enough shocked hounds who have that reaction to know though.

Big Dog · Post by **Big Dog** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 5:43 pm

To Joe; The last case that you cited is extreme and highly unlikey. First of all any dog that runs in the south or midwest will come across deer scent on a constant basis and if he goes to the truck everytime he smells a deer he will never leave the truck. I have seen many dogs that have been broken off of deer with a shock collar. The only way you will know that most of them have crossed a deer line is if another dog goes on it and they come back to you. I have 6 in my kennel now that I have personally broken off of deer with a shock collar. They hunt normal even when there is hot deer scent around, but if another dog goes on the deer they will do one of two things. 1. Check him and ignore him and continue to look for a rabbit 2, ignore him and come back to me.

I don't have any that automatically go back to the truck nor have I seen any in my 28 years of experience that would go back and hide at the truck. Just my two cents. I'm sure there are one or two knotheads that would do this, but they are far from the norm, and probably weren't worth a flip anyway.

Phillip Smith · Post by **Phillip Smith** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:28 pm

Joe fraid I can't help you with that one. My dogs are hunted around green fields and are going over deer tracks all the time and I'm like Big Dog, I've never seen a dog broke with a shock collar come back to the truck just because he smelled deer. I have seen it with dogs that were beat for running deer. I had one. I would say a dog that would do that had been over broke.

Phillip Smith · Post by **Phillip Smith** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:40 pm

Nothing short of a traumatic event can make a hound leave a hot line when no command to do so is given! Written by Joe West!

Joe, I have a question. what effect would a traumatic event have on a hounds or even us humans heart rate and even blood pressure?

If indeed a shock collar is such a traumatic event as you suggest then what effect would it have on the heart rate and b. pressure?

I'm sure everyone knows the answers but I want joe to answer because I have another question if he gets these right!

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:24 am

Big Dog: I reckon deer are all over now. I beleive we are, most of us, in the same boat deer wise.

Phiilip: If I get them right? What if I get them wrong? The adreneline would be pumped into their system and the heart rate goes up along with a spike in pressure too. Don't forget the increased rate of resperation too. Now let me help you with where I think your going with this and add that in cases fo extreme fright the brain will kind of shut down and will work on a kind of auto pilot. The fight or flight syndrome. IN such cases the individuals mind set at the time will play a big roll in what they do when on auto pilot and then again with we humans their training will kick in and they will respond with thier long term muscle memory.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:50 am

How traumatic do you suppose it is for a hound that gets shot, because he won't quite running deer?

Given the choice, even in the 'flight or fright' LOL state of mind, I think the dog would opt for the electricity -- I know I would.

Everyone, please concede to Joe that a shock is traumatic for a Beagle, for whatever reason. Then, we can all just say that it's the best alternative out of all the others... Kind of like the famous Winston Churchill quote: "Democracy is the worst form of government; after all the others". It rings true... sure, shock collars aren't like strawberries and cream for a dog, but they're the best form of correction that we currently have. To not utilize the proven tool would be like going back to walking everywhere, because the whip was too traumatic for the horse and car emissions were just too painful to deal with. Not practical.

wingpatch · Post by **wingpatch** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 6:10 am

Can anyone think about how Traumatic it must be on a poor deer runner for some one to walk down the line and pick this dog up and give it the shaken deer beagle syndrome.. now all we can hope for is he does'nt go into the fight er flight Syndrome, It would be very very Traumatic To go into two Traumatic syndromes at the same time...

Phillip Smith · Post by **Phillip Smith** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 10:50 am

Joe, I looked this up and this is what I found. Don't know for a fact that it is true but I don't see the kind of reaction that you describe either. Not to the extent you have describe. If I was getting that result I would be against shock collars also.
Clinical studies have been designed and conducted by veteriniarians and physiologist at a major university. The scientific studies tested for possible cardiopulmonary and epiderman effects of the electrical stimulations applied to the ventral surface of the neck.
These studies show that there was NO clinically significant change in electrocardiograms (heart rate), blood pressures or properties of the skin.
Joe I know nothing I say will change your mind about shock collars and I respect your for that. But (and I study my dogs close, a lot closer then you think I do). I just don't think shock collars have the negative effect on dogs that you think they do. I know dogs are ruined with all trainig methods, but I think if a shock collar is used only for reenforcing commands that a dog already knows and he has been conditionined to the shock collar then it want have a negative effect at all. I just haven't seen one ruined or even set back when the ground work is done. I have seen them ruined by shock collars but it was by some idiots that only knew on setting and didn't know when to let off.
Maybe, just maybe you don't know everything about shock collars and how they work. Because your results are far different then most peoples on here.
I know a shock collar is not a cure for every thing that is wrong with dogs but they have their place and are used by some of the best and most respected dog trainers in the world.
This has been a good descussion and a lot of good poinst have been brought up. I'm now convinced more then ever that shock collars are great when used as they are intended for. The results speak for themselves.

swing · Post by **swing** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:27 pm

Well guys I hadnt ever really tried to get in my dogs head until today.
I had just took for granite they were dogs, boy after seeing some of these post on here I realized dogs were smarter than I thot.
I took mine out for coffee this morning and we set at the round table for awhile and they enlightned me on the trauma of hunting.
I finally brought it to a vote some wanted to be shook as long as it wasnt to hard, some wanted a tap of electricity, I asked them about the fight or flight syndrome, they said they would rather fly as fight so I dont know if I got the point wrong or if they did.
I have got one that isnt old enough to talk good yet tho so I didnt get a good evaluation from that one.
You have helped me out alot Joe thanx
Trent

Big Dog · Post by **Big Dog** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 4:01 pm

Hey Trent did you tell them that the majority ruled and there would only be once policy?(LOL) The one that can't talk will be demanding a recount in the near future.

Big Dog

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 4:28 pm

Chris I was LOL at your comment on shooting them and Swing, man, I have been trying to get my breath for the last 10 minutes after yours.

Robert, I know what you are saying. I used to get deer runners all the time. How many times, I can't count, has a guy called me and said "I got a great rabbit dog but he likes them deer way to much." I loved it then but now I wonder, "how many of them could still be great rabbit dogs if only they owned a shock collar." I don't know and every now and then I would come across one that even the collar couldn't break but those were mostly coon hounds that ended up as deer hounds. Like Chris said, and I don't have a need for deer hounds anymore, if they run a deer and I have no alternative then they get a .22 to the earhole. So I'll take the collars and take my chances.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:02 pm

You guys are a riot. Swing, I was laughing so loud that my 7-year-old son came into my office and asked what could be so funny.

I'd rather argue with any of you guys about dogs than eat ice-cream.

wingpatch · Post by **wingpatch** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 6:18 pm

Swing,
I have found my dogs lisen a lot better if i take them to a movie [as long as there is no Traumatic sceens in it that is] I took them once to see bambi And they did'nt run a deer for a whole week.
There tractabiliy & whole out look on life has changed If they become unruley i just take them to see something like the Hulk if i think they need a TRAUMATIC experience to expound the point i am trying to get across....
Joe i can not thank you enough.

swing · Post by **swing** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 6:49 pm

Well Wingpatch,
I took your advice on watching Bambi, The kids had the video, so I brought all the dogs in, I set with 2 and the wife had 2 and each kid had one and every time bambi would show herself, we shook the heck out of them.
So I went out to feed them after the movie was over, and guess what happened.
There was a deer in the field behind the house and they could see it and you guessed it every dog was setting there shaking.
I dont know if that is a good thing or a bad thing tho.
I'm affraid I will have to shock them for shaking the next time I take them hunting if they see a deer.
Can someone with a TRAUMATIC experience help me out here because I think I am having one.
I can't make up my mind whether to shock or shake.
Trent

The American Beagler Forum

Breaking from running deer

breaking off deer

????

deer

?