Registered packs run to a lose? How?

[Alabama John]

How do 8,10, or 12 or more beagle packs run to a lose? In this months American Beagler it had some registered packs or various numbers of dogs.

They sure seemed to handle well and I noticed they had no collars at all.

In the write up in several cases it mentioned how good they ran and how close on the track and how close the dogs were bunched. All good, way to go.

What bothered and surprised me that several races ended by the pack running to a lose.

How is that possible?

With a good pack worthy of being registered as a pack? No hole, no caught rabbit, just ran to a lose.

I used to see walkie talkies run to a lose because they were so slow the rabbit would run off so far ahead that the track got colder and colder until the dogs were coldtrailing more and more and then the scent was gone.

The term of the walkie talkie field trial days of the 40's and 50's was my dog ran (the dog was so slow you could crawl on your hands and knees and would run off and leave it RUNNING the track) great, and died beautifully on the track.

Is this the tracking type of beagle of the future, if so, history does and is repeating itself.

I have no comments about the fancy pants!!!

[Bev]

To me a lose is a lose. Any time one runs their hounds and doesn't bring back meat, their hounds ran to a lose. Just because a person can't find a hole, doesn't mean there wasn't one - or a junk pile the dogs can't get thru. We have a lot of those at the old railroad grounds where we run.

A lose is also very subjective. Would it not be considered the same thing as a "dead track?". I've seen that occur 5 or six times in an hour with 5 supposedly "super-charged" hounds that made it to the finals.

I agree, the handling of those formal packs is impressive. In most trials you have one handler per dog and it still takes two or three people to catch one, lol! Seriously, they start teaching those hounds to handle off lead and in a pack when they are just little pups. They are brought up that way, and if they don't get with the program they aren't used in the pack. I've never seen a formal pack run, but I have seen a few of the pedigrees on some, and from what I can tell, they run what we would call a conservative PP hound - or a medium speed.

I couldn't do the white pants, either. Butt's too big to wear white.

[Alabama John]

Bev, I understand about piles and obstacles and agree with you. We also have some go up in hollow trees that Cane Cutters love to go up in.

We also have our races ended by rabbits ducking into obstacles as you mentioned that let the rabbit get somewhere the dogs can't go. We call all those going to ground; that is still accounting for the rabbit and we would never call that a LOSE.

Weren't they running in a very large pen made and specifically used for running rabbits?

Maybe I got the wrong impression, but it sounded like it was a common and usual and excepted ending to their races to have their packs just run to a lose. That should not be acceptable to Beaglers that hunt today. That is NOT accounting for game!

I would like to have someone tell us what caused the lose, obstacle or colder and colder track as I suspect.

A pack must run close enough to its game to keep the scent hot and if the quarry can and will run off and continually gets further and further from the dogs, the trail will progressively get colder and colder. I see it every time I go to the walkie talkie trials near my home.

How many times do you see game, rabbits and coons especially wanting to pull tricks to gain that advantage. They understand what I am saying.

My question is: is that colder and colder trail what was happening in the loses occuring in the article or, if not, what? I'm just curious.

Note: Just losing a rabbit running is a very rare happening here. I do not remember when it happened last, as it was so long ago.

[Bev]

John, I'm not absolutely sure, but I believe the formal packs run at Intstitute Farm in Aldie, VA are run in the wild - not in pens. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this.

[laal]

John, I would like to know what is going on too. My pack has ran to a loss!! I didn't like it!! But you don't see any of my dogs at field trials eather.

Me and Dad watched 3 dogs run a GREAT rabbit for 1 and 1/2 hours Sat morn. One time the rabbit came out of the woods, turned left in the left side of the road and ran about 30 yards stoped and ran back down the same line past where it came out of the woods for 30 more yards then turned back in the same side it came from. The dogs took a while working it out but it was fun watching!!!

Our dogs don't leave many rabbits up!! Most are in the ground, or we catch our dogs off the line before they catch the rabbit. SOME GET COUGHT.

[bamadog]

Hey John I dont think you need no collars if you have some of them white britches and a whip .

[AlabamaSwamper]

Bev, I may be wrong also but I thought in that article that it said something about they was in an enclosure. Maybe I'm wrong. Enclosures can be just like the wild if they are big enough so there was no excuse either way. Looked like in those pics that there were plenty of hounds so to me they should never lose the rabbit. lol

Bama, you reckon John would look right on a horse, wearing them britches and sport jackets.

[tnbeagleman]

I hate to sound crazy !! What's the whip for???I guess the stick is a tally hoe stick but whats with the whip? Do they ride horses to judge and need the whip for the horse. I can think of a few guys that would look spiffy in those clothes. LOL I'll not get into names but some know who you are.

[bob huffman]

I think them dudes with the whips are called the WHIPPER INNERS but I not sure. I think they are suppose to keep track of the hounds and the whip helps remind the hard headed one which way the parade is going. Can't just anybody be a Whipper Inner. You have to be able to drink tea from a cup and ride a jumpin horse in a fancy suit cause they don't allow no jumping mules or overalls. If you show up in overalls, they will send you home and stop waving to you when they see you on the road.

[Alabama John]

I wonder if Joe West would consider the whipper Inners poping one with that long bull whip as causing irrepairable physic damage and trauma? Is there dog psycologist that can unravel it all in the dogs mind? I do not know of one around here.

[snowshoehareguide]

john i saw two bull moose ahead of me on the powerline when rigging for bear sat. . i had my young hound that was on the rig squeal a little . i did a little whipper inin on her. .. also gave her a light shock... she looked pshcollogically scarred for a minute but next time she barked was a bear .. treed em . no permanent scars that i can tell . next day saw one moose running in front of me in the rd. another standing in a mudhole close to the rd. . she just ignored them.. anyways i agree dogs shouldnt lose. its not always because theyre too slow. in my case its usually cause dogs too fast and too competitive that they make losses. a few short checks can give the hare a big head start.. on crusty snow i have seen what your saying john. dogs running good and end up cold trailing.. end up with nothing and thats on hare and i know they didnt go in a hole. pete

[Chris]

Well, you think 7 or 8 dogs losing a rabbit is bad, how about a Large Pack of 40 or 50 on hare losing a rabbit? Happens all the time. It happens frequently with 6 or 7 dogs in Small Pack on hare, too. It happens a lot. I've got some dogs that I'd like to think are above average, and they all lose hare occasionally. It just happens. I don't think I've ever gunned over a dog, for any length of time, that never lost a rabbit. Can't explain it; only report it.

John, if you can't remember the last time your dogs lost a rabbit then either of two things is the case...

1) You've got some miraculous dogs.
2) You've got a real short memory.

And I know you've got a good memory.


Just had a thought... John, you're not talking about those Swamp Rabbits are you? Do you have the same experience on cottontails and/or hare?

[Chuck Terry]

Just an opinion - larger packs INCREASE the chance of loss by increasing the likelihood of overcompetetiveness which can lead to bad over-runs. It only takes two "racers" to mess up their cooperative packmates.

[Alabama John]

Chris and Chuck. I agree. The most loses I ever see is when a bunch of dogs are running together that are new to each other. There will be racers, cutters, liers, false mouthers, track stealers that run off on the track and give mouth only when they are out aways to steal the front by cheating, dogs running silently out to the side of the pack to gain an advantage if the rabbit turns their way, etc. Any of these will cause the pack to lose the rabbit and have a dead track.

In a pack that is owned by one person, there should be none of those present. Especially in a pack competetion where you run your own put together, culled, matched pack against others per the judges judgement and not the packs mixed in like a large Pack trial. Team work!

If you are losing rabbits, you do not have TEAM WORK and one or more in your pack is causing the loses by doing something you haven't seen yet.

Rabbits can't fly so the track is still on the ground and the dogs should not be too far from it so they should scatter, circle, and find it or the squatting rabbit.

Chuck, that type of racing to cause an overrun should not be present in a matched pack. This should be only seen at field trials where your dog is put down with strange dogs and they are competing to be better than the others that are put down with them, not helping one another.

A matched pack should not run to a lose or just lose the rabbit. Maybe they call a lose when the rabbit is caught or goes somewhere the dogs can't go. I want to know if that is the case, just to know, or if the rabbit just outruns their noses.

I have two friends also that have packs of 8 to 15 matched like I speak of and when a rabbit is jumped by either of their packs, the rabbit will not be lost, but will go somewhere the dogs can't go or it will be caught if they are not picked up. Each of their packs only have a lose when they run them together, never when run by themselves. They are different speeds and do not match or run as good mixed as competition sets in. We know that and still run together some in the summer just for fun.

We three also run occasionally with our packs all together (26 dogs approx.) even though our pack is the fastest footed of the three.

Chris, this is on Cottontails in soybean or corn fields, large ones, or in the swamps running in the watery woods after Cane Cutters.

Works here, just my opinion. Neither me or any of my dogs have ever seen a Hare.

[Chris]

Wow, John, I'm impressed. Never seen any dogs that haven't lost a rabbit occasionally. We don't kill every rabbit my dogs start (probably somewhere between 80 and 90%). By reading this thread I'd think I had culls; if it weren't for the fact that I've gunned over many dogs from all over the country and haven't seen anything that I'd trade the lot for.

Have quite a few hunters come up here with their cottontail dogs and once in a while they slip and say "That rabbit must have gone to ground." Then I remind them that hare don't go to ground and they laugh. They say, "our dogs don't ever lose a cottontail, so where'd the hare go?" I tell them that I have no clue where it went, but it's time to find another one.

How do you really know they don't lose? Do you guys mark every hole? Do cottontails not keep running (ie. track gets old) on a long check? Hare usually keep going and on a 4 or 5 minute check and it can be about like cold-trailing, to get it hot again, when the scenting is really poor. I've also seen days when there wasn't enough scent for a dog to run any more than the first 50 yards of a hot track. Don't you guys have days like that down south? To me, that'd be a loss. I know you don't have the below zero temps and deep snow, but surely you must have those hot super-dry days when the scent is about non-existent???