Bev.
And most all above. You are right about tinkering with genes. Look at the coon hounds. In most cases there Natural desire is gone by human desires and needs.
And getting back to deer breaking. I well state this for the record It is natural for a beagle hound to run. You can't take away his natural desire to run. You correct him.By what ever means works
And i want to apoigize to ever hound man on this board for putting them in a catagory with whom it was intended.
Friend in sport Wingpatch
Breaking from running deer
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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bob huffman
Hey Chris You are exactly right. The misunderstanding was caused because we have differant goals. In fact, if someone buys a pup from me, I would be very happy if they had your training experience and knowledge. I want them to train the dog as you do, to be the best it can be in regard to hunting and handling. Nothing I would like better than to sell a dog to a person like you that will give them a chance. I know you understand where I am coming from now and it shows your experience and judgement about dogs. I know you need dogs that are well trained because you are a rabbit hunter etc. Sometimes when I post, it may not be completely understood until it is reread a couple of times. One of the first things I learned in school was to read the material 3 times if I were to understand it completely. I have a high IQ and my reading skills are excellent but it doesn't matter how smart a person is when it comes to reading info. It takes 3 times to be able to recall it and twice to recognize it if it were to show on a test later. I have approached my breeding for the last 10 years at least by doing the natural thing I discussed. The last dog I bred to was never trained by a human. I bought him when he was 3 and he had run loose his whole life on a farm in Iowa. Was never taught to handle and when I asked the girl that hadhim if he was good rabbit dog, she said she didn't know because all she did was listen to him when he ran around the farm. Well it turned out he was a rabbit dog and actually got a lot better when I hunted him a few times. He was totally independant and had a bad habit in that he wouldn't handle a bit. Even at that I was able to get him to handle before too long and decided right then and ther he was genetically a wonderful dog. I found out later his father was pearson creek on top through a fd ch called Square Cutter and a Tiberlake Sambo female. His mother was from the old precher down in LA that bred the Bayou dogs for years and years and went back to TRIGGER XVII. It makes sense to me that if he turned out as good as he did with no training, think of what his pups would do if they got in the hands of someone like you. As for psychology etc., it is simply an easier way to understand the world and what is going on around you at all times. A degree in psych mearly teaches you how to learn. It doesn't teach you any foolish ideas or voodoo. Most of the books in school never tell you that this is how it is. They only tell you that this is what happened and they let you draw your own conclusion. You learn how to learn! You learn how to understand cause and affect and the rest is up to you. In my experience they never try to tell how to think or that one way is better than the next. They give you the info from repeatable research and let you decide what to make of it. They aslo teach you how to understand false correlations for example, if I told you that people that eat Frosted Flakes have alower rate of cancer than folks that eat Shredded Wheat, some people might think that Shredded Wheat could cause cancer. Of course that is not the case but it is true that people that eat Shredded Wheat have more cancer. The problem with this statement is there is not enough info to make an informed decision and one may draw a flalse conclusion if using only the evidance presented. The truth is that old people eat Shredded Wheat and younger people eat Frosted Flakes and as you know, old people have more cancer than young people. That is all college teaches you and the rest is up to the person to find the answers to problems. They are simply trying to increase your problem solving skills. Sort of like outr misunderstanding on our differant goals that you recognized. I rest my case and good luck to you although I don't think you need luck when you have ability.
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bob huffman
TOES?? How about 18, unless you have one of them potlickers that have dew claws on the back and then it would be 20. I count dew claws as toes and assume you do to. I fudged on you little bit though. You hit me right in my strong suit because I breed 6 toed cats. Some may not know what that is but I think a lot of people have seen what is called a 6 toed cat. They have thumbs like a person or coon and also have a little claw between the thumb and first toe. Some also have 5 or 6 toes on the back feet. As you see I am in to toes so I guess I cheated a little bit on your answer. If anyone wants I will post a picture of one to view as it is an interesting item about genetics. It is called polydactile and was a mutation that started in England and came to America on merchant ships. They are real good ratters and mousers and yes I know this is a Beagle board!!!!!!
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bob huffman
I'm impressed wingpatch!!!!! Sounds pretty good to me!!! Thought I might clarify my approach to deer runners a little. Read the post carefully and you will see I said leaving them works on MY DOGS, or maybe I didn't but regardless I understand that this is not an effiecent way to break most dogs. I am using it as a selection tool. If you are going to breed any kind of plant or animal, you need to define a goal and stick with aiming at that goal. You can't be changing horses in mid stream and flip flopping around. The desire to run a deer or any game can be bred into ot out of a line of dogs. The desire can be weak or it can be strong. That is why coon dogs want to run coons, rabbit dogs want to run rabbits and bird dogs want to point birds. My method of leaving MY DOGS overnight and the next day is a selection tool that will show me how strong the dogs desire is to run deer. I may give him more than one chance depending on the circumstances. I am trying to find out how strong his desire is and how hard he would be to break by whatever method you choose. If I wanted to really break a dog off deer, this method is not a good one. It causes the dog to get hungry and this is when a dog is most ready and apt to learn. When he gets hungry, he knows that I feed him and he suddenly starts to thunk about me instead of his little deer friend. By morning he has usually quit the deer and is bedded down where I turned him out. Once he gets bedded down and is tired from his big run, some will not move from that spot even if you call them, and there are some that will get up and come to you when you return the floowing evening to fetch them. I am looking for dogs to breed that are tractable and as most know any good true hound will come back and wait where he was turned loose. If he don't, he won't eat my feed and I won't breed him. If he does he is still on my good list but still hasn't shown me what he is genetically in regard to his deer running desire. I will find that out the next few times I run him in deer. There will be 1 of 3 outcomes. He will take deer and just burn it, he will take a deer and suddenly realize it is not good, or he will just not have anymore desire to run one. I am looking to see how easy he would be to break off deer by conventional means. The ones that take a track and quit it will general be alright and of course the ones that won't run one from them on will also be OK. I will breed these dogs if they meet all the other criteria. Keep in mind that I have whole litters to work with as I sell very few dogs and never intended to until I have something worth selling. This makes it easier for me because if one don't make it, I just go to the next one etc. I have culled so many dogs I wuldn't try to count them. I am having success with this selection proccess and so could anyone if they had enough dogs to work with from a good strain. As wingpatch said, if they run deer, get rid of them and get one that don't. Easy to understand. That is what I do but in my case I don't have to go far to get onother one to train or run. I have them coming out my ears some years and then the selection proccess gets a little stiffer. When the dog first runs a deer, I could whack him hard with the collar and break him. Then I could sell him to you and he might make a good dog. Then you could breed him or her and gues what? Thats right, get your collar out because you will need it. In todays economy believe it or not, there are some poor people out there that can't afford not to buy groceries just so Daddy can have a shocking collar for his dogs. These are the people I think about when I sell a pup. The last dog I bred to ran loose for 3 years in country thick with deer and ample chances to run them. I never saw him run until he was 3 years old and he has never ran a deer on me even when put right through them to see if he would. I don't know if he ran them when young and broke himself or if he never ran them but all I know is he don't run them now and was never broke by a human. He had all the tools a dogs needs to be a ver good dog and he had some breeding so I used him. I bred him to bitch of mine that has never run a deer and I expect the pups to be the same way give or take a couple. There is always variation so perfection is not expected but I expect the majority to have a very low desire to run deer and will be easy to break when the time comes. This is not wishful thinking but is things I have seen from experience. It is the same with the handling. A pup starts out handling good and as they get older they get more independant and soon they won't come in when you call. If I leave one of these for 24 hours where I let them out, the next time we go hunting they are paying attention to where I am and what we are doing becaue he likes to eat and don't want to be left again. Here again is a selection proccess. If he is too independant, this method won't work and I have found out easily how much he wants to hunt with me and if he is smart enough to know who is the pack leader and who has the groceries. Food is a strong motivator for a dog and of all the dogs you see on TV such as the litte dog in the FRAZIER show etc are trained with food. They are allowed to get at least 24 hours hungry and then they will just work their butts off for their dinner. It is simple and easy and on a level the dog understands totally. What motivates you and why do you go to work etc. Mostly for food and safety and all your other needs. A dog is no differant and will do whatever he needs to to meet his needs. The breeders job is to breed the right needs into the dog and the intelligence to fulfill them. It all starts with the selection proccess and the methods used to do the selecting. Good luck!
????
Even though i desagree with leaveing a dog out all night . Now before i start this needs to be read more they once ok.
Most people that i have seen take the dog that just ran a deer all night or for several hours and load him up and take him home to rest up for the next go around.
There alone is one of the biggest mistakes you could possibly make in trying to break a deer runner.Take the dog right back where you know it can jump a deer. most likely if he ran all night he is a little tender footed to say the lease or he is a little tired and has the edge wore off him from running several hours.He just ran a deer right , If he is a deer runner he most likely will bust out of there on another one. Now lay the hammer to him. shock collar or catch and use what ever means works for you.Odds are more in your favor that you got the point across On a tired or woreout dog than you will the next day when you take him out fresh and looking for something to run... Wingpatch
Most people that i have seen take the dog that just ran a deer all night or for several hours and load him up and take him home to rest up for the next go around.
There alone is one of the biggest mistakes you could possibly make in trying to break a deer runner.Take the dog right back where you know it can jump a deer. most likely if he ran all night he is a little tender footed to say the lease or he is a little tired and has the edge wore off him from running several hours.He just ran a deer right , If he is a deer runner he most likely will bust out of there on another one. Now lay the hammer to him. shock collar or catch and use what ever means works for you.Odds are more in your favor that you got the point across On a tired or woreout dog than you will the next day when you take him out fresh and looking for something to run... Wingpatch
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Phillip Smith
Folks, this could go on for ever. There are so many different opinions on how to break dogs. I and lots of people on hear have used collars for years. I've used them for the 20+ years. I've made a project out of breaking and training dosgs that have already been ruined and have one right now. I bought him for $100.00 and have already turned down several hundred for him. Joe says I don't know how a shock collar works. Maybe I don't but I sure know how to use them and am very happy with the results. Timmy Holloway of Ga. tried to buy my Golden Rod dog this morning. Beleive it or not he was 3 years old before he ever had a collar on. He just needed a little training on handling. Now it didn't set him back or ruin him, but one thing is for sure he's better then ever. He's never ran a Deer. May next time I go. Most of the time if I raise a dog I never use a shock collar for anything but trash breaking if nessecary. We all know that dogs can be ruined and are ruined by shock collars. We all know that a lot more dogs are ruined by a lot of other methods. Joe I'm sure your method of training works good on most dogs but not all. Just as I'm sure most of the dogs you cull could be trained with the use of a shock collar. (I know they should not be used for breeding).
I honestly don't think a man could have ever used a shock collar to make some of the comments that Joe makes. Joe if you have an opinion or an answer on any comment you will jump on it. But you have never once gave any indication that you have used shock collars to get the results that you talk about, in fact you said youv'e never ruined a dog with one. Either you have never used one or either you had good results? I know you keep turning things around (your great at that) but I don't know why you keep dodgeing this question. (I know it's because I didn't tell you how a shock collar works). But I don't beleive that for one minute. You jump at the chance to state you opinion if you think you have the answer. If you know something the rest of us don't about the use of shock collars why not share it with the rest of us so we want make the same mistakes you did and have such a negative attitude about them.
I honestly don't think a man could have ever used a shock collar to make some of the comments that Joe makes. Joe if you have an opinion or an answer on any comment you will jump on it. But you have never once gave any indication that you have used shock collars to get the results that you talk about, in fact you said youv'e never ruined a dog with one. Either you have never used one or either you had good results? I know you keep turning things around (your great at that) but I don't know why you keep dodgeing this question. (I know it's because I didn't tell you how a shock collar works). But I don't beleive that for one minute. You jump at the chance to state you opinion if you think you have the answer. If you know something the rest of us don't about the use of shock collars why not share it with the rest of us so we want make the same mistakes you did and have such a negative attitude about them.
Phillip: Actually I had posted here in the past my experiance with the shocking collar when we discussed this topic before. I'm not going to accomodate you now but maybe in the future we'll get around to it.
The method of training I use will not work on a hound who lacks tractability. Then too each hound is an individual and requires handleing to suit thier individual needs. NOT a different training method but different handleing.
I honestly find it hard to beleive that anyone who uses the shock collar as much as you have has never seen an adverse reaction to them. It leads me to beleive that you are not studying your hounds.
I have told you something you don't know about the shock collar. But it does not fit into your agenda so you refuse to investigate it. Then again if you had taken the time to reread the posts here in this thread like I suggested you WOULD have seen where people who advocate the use of shock collars describe some of the exact behavior I warn of in their own hounds. I told you before I posted what the possible effects of the shock collar useage were that you would not like it and that you would seek to bash me. That's why I gave you first shot at it. You refused and have instead done exactly what I said you would. I also told you then that I wasn't going to answer your question so there you have it.
The method of training I use will not work on a hound who lacks tractability. Then too each hound is an individual and requires handleing to suit thier individual needs. NOT a different training method but different handleing.
I honestly find it hard to beleive that anyone who uses the shock collar as much as you have has never seen an adverse reaction to them. It leads me to beleive that you are not studying your hounds.
I have told you something you don't know about the shock collar. But it does not fit into your agenda so you refuse to investigate it. Then again if you had taken the time to reread the posts here in this thread like I suggested you WOULD have seen where people who advocate the use of shock collars describe some of the exact behavior I warn of in their own hounds. I told you before I posted what the possible effects of the shock collar useage were that you would not like it and that you would seek to bash me. That's why I gave you first shot at it. You refused and have instead done exactly what I said you would. I also told you then that I wasn't going to answer your question so there you have it.
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Phillip Smith
Joe, I knew you would dodge this question because I already knew you didn't have an answer. Reread my post and you will see where I said I set a couple of dogs back. I don't abuse my dogs with the shock collars so I don't see the things you say you've read about. Sorry it just don't hold water. I talk about my dogs and my experinces not some joe -blow idiot that abuse's their dogs. Next!!!!!!!1
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bob huffman
Would be nice if you fellas could include some pictures with our discussion. I always enjoy looking at the pictures. I quit school in the 10th grade believe it or not(probably not too hard to believe) because the teachers said I was always looking out the window. This may be the longest thread in Beagle history and may qualify for the book of records. Best of all its free!!! Thanks Bev!!!!! WE DO APPRECIATE IT!!!!! OK. Continue gentlemen.
The perfect set-up;
I know a fellow down in Miss. that had the perfect set-up if there ever was a chance to breed a deer proof strain of hounds. He bred lots of puppies from the same family of hounds , started them and picked from them the ones that hunted and handled like he wanted. He ran mostly at night, I ask him about them getting on deer and he said, I never had to break a hound off deer, for I have 3 deer camps around me & every fall they will give me $100. for every deer runner I will sell them, the ones that won't take a deer, stay with me. Now, he did this for about 28 years and yes, he still kept the deer camp supplied. Due to age & health, he hasn't bred or owned hounds for about 12 years now but had this set-up been carried on, well it's the best I've heard of...Patch
I know a fellow down in Miss. that had the perfect set-up if there ever was a chance to breed a deer proof strain of hounds. He bred lots of puppies from the same family of hounds , started them and picked from them the ones that hunted and handled like he wanted. He ran mostly at night, I ask him about them getting on deer and he said, I never had to break a hound off deer, for I have 3 deer camps around me & every fall they will give me $100. for every deer runner I will sell them, the ones that won't take a deer, stay with me. Now, he did this for about 28 years and yes, he still kept the deer camp supplied. Due to age & health, he hasn't bred or owned hounds for about 12 years now but had this set-up been carried on, well it's the best I've heard of...Patch
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Phillip Smith
Joe, went back and read you post on shock collars again. I have just never seen SOME of the reactions your talking about. However I have seen some of them when tying a dog out or leading it for the first time if someone waited till the dog had some age on it. But it never ruined or messed the dog up in any way. [/u]