Breaking from running deer

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:22 pm

Joe West wrote: Therefore the only way that it can make them leave the line is shock, trauma.

You got that right and they remember it too. Kinda like that switch you got as a kid. Didn't take long to realize what you were doing was wrong, did it.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:01 pm

Beagleman973: Actually I think oyur pretty smart for using the collar on yourself. I'm going to partially agree with your thoughts. In some injuries the pain is temporarily blocked, but not all of it and not for long. The fact that a hound will run for hours with broken bones pretty much dispels the pain thing in my book. A broken bone hurts pretty bad right off the bat and only gets worse with time. Your thoughts on the muscles constricting and causeing them to loose the scent may be valid but it does not account for them not reaquireing the line. The constant and growing pain of a broken bone is worse then the short temporary pain of the shock I beleive.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:12 pm

Phillip Smith: It's prety much a universally understood fact that beagles have a tendancy towards timidity. I don't doubt for a minute that you can't see it though.

As I said reread this thread and you'll see where other beaglers who use and advocate the collar describe their own houns reacting in such a manner.

YOU never gave any explantaion on how you think the shock collar works. As I said before if you won't answer before me you have no right to rip me after because I gave you the oppertunity to go first. I knew you COULDN'T answer though so I cheated and gave you first go.

And you are worng I do understand how hounds can be shocked and still be friendly. If you pay attention to my posts I don't clain they will ruin every hound just that the potential is there and one never knows before hand which ones will have an adverse reaction and which ones won't.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:19 pm

Bob Huffman: I've found your post vary interesting. I had suspected that naturally straight hounds read their handlers body language; and like you I had also thought they had a strong desire to run rabbits. I'd be interested in hearing more of your training methods. How do you teach manners? What percentage of your hounds are keepers for deer running? How long did it take you with your breeding practice for your hounds to breed true for the trait of quitting deer just by leaving them there? And anything else you think should be added.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 8:26 pm

Alabama Swamper: GOOD!! I'm glad you agree. Now for everyone else here is the definition of trauma. A painful emotional experiance or shock, often produceing a lasting psychic effect and sometimes, a neurosis.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:05 pm

bob huffman wrote:I don't set them up for failure and I don't expect total control or immediate results when it comes to handling. I like the natural method of training and let the hound see the natural outcome of his actions.

Bob, do you really think that Beagles are capable of that? I don't. I dare say that leaving a hound to his own devices won't teach them much of anything. Not really much in the way of 'handling' at all.

bob huffman wrote:I don't exert too much effort at this and if they take off on one, I just go home. I am a breeder trying to produce as good as dog as possible and I am not too interested in what I call trick dogs. Those are dogs that have a lot of yard training and obediance commands to make them hunt with you.

Trick dogs? I think the key words there are 'don't exert too much effort'.

Joe West wrote:How long did it take you with your breeding practice for your hounds to breed true for the trait of quitting deer just by leaving them there?

Yeah, that aught to be interesting. I'm waiting for that one too.

Joe West wrote:Alabama Swamper: GOOD!! I'm glad you agree. Now for everyone else here is the definition of trauma. A painful emotional experiance or shock, often produceing a lasting psychic effect and sometimes, a neurosis.

Joe, I still fail to see your point. Getting stung by a swarm of bees must be pretty traumatic, too -- a hound learns to leave bees nests alone??? So, it's traumatic. So what? The old school saying of 'if it doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger', makes a lot of sense to me.

Come on folks, it's not rocket science here. The more we put into dogs the more, in general, we get out of them. It's much easier to tout passiveness, when it comes to handling our hounds, than it is to roll up your sleeves and really train them. It's OK to not care if your dogs handle, or run deer, or whatever, but don't blow smoke and try to rationalize it.

Phillip Smith · Post by **Phillip Smith** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:20 pm

Chris, I think we all know how the shock collar works and the results but it very clear that Joe is getting his information some where but the field in actual experince. He has to be, to be so ingorant of the ways of the shock collar. Joe do you know what ingorant means or does someone have to expalin that to you also. I'm sure you can find it in some book!

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:44 pm

Hey Chris. You were wondering if beagles are really capable of that. Are all Beagles alike? In 3 generations I could breed you a Beagle that would never leave your side from my dogs. I could also breed you a dog that would never come in or hunt with you I could do this by inbreeding certain dogs from the same family. One thing I have noticed is that people prefer dogs that are like themselves. The smarter the man, probably the smarter the dog. Some people love Pit Bulls. Those people are generally not the folks with a submissive nature. By not training my dogs forceably to handle, I am able to observe what they are gebetically and what traits they inherited naturally. This helps tremendously in choosing stock that will produce the traits I want in a dog. I know you have great success with your methods and that is a good thing. Understand that I would never breed to one of your dogs because I wouldn't know what behavior traits he inherited and which traits were taught. I have found that if you are going to sell pups to the public, it is better to breed dogs that inherit as much of the good behavioral traits as possible. I thought about this years ago when I realized that most people are not great dog trainers and it was very important to produce a dog that will make good IN SPITE OF THE OWNER. Not everyone is a dedicated as you when it comes to training and those are the people I am think about when I breed 2 dogs together. The only possible way I can find the natural inheritance of a dog, is to let them be who they are without much interferance from me. Before you keep bashing my ideas, you should know that I forgot more about dog training methods by the time you were born than you know now. The last thing you need to do is get into a big argument about canine psychology and sociology with me. I don't mind you asking questions, but you need to drop the attitude. If dogs truly do reflect the owners personality, maybe that is why yours need a shocking collar. The first mistake you make is lumping all beagles together.

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:15 pm

Well, if thats what you call it Joe. Then so be it. The only thing I know is that it will stop them in their tracks and they will come back. Then, its off running rabbits again. Once this has happened, mission accomplished.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:20 pm

Joe you were wonderingabout my training methods. I know lots of training methods. I have a degree in Psychology and a degree in Sociology which I aquired as a double major on acedemic scholorship. In the past I have used operant conditiong and classical conditioning teaching condition responses and shaping unconditioned resposes. I have used the avoidance method and several others. I have used a lot of Barbara Woodhouses methods and my present techniques are a combination of all of the above. I can make a dog do just about anything a dog can do. I could train my dogs to be perfect as far as handling and have trained many hounds this way in the past. My job as a breeder is much differant and the dogs I use to produce a good dog must be producers of as much natural ability as I can get in the offspring. I have found that training a dog does not make him or her produce any better and they certainly won't reproduce their learned training. I have worked harder at training dogs than anyone you know. At this point, I am not interested in how many things I can teach a dog, but in what the dog will reproduce. If they produce dogs that are easy to train, it makes their value higher as a hunting partner. You have more success withowners because if a dog has a lot of natural ability, many more average dog trainers will have success with them. Old Chris, he don't agree with my program and he thinks I ought to get me one of them electric necklaces for my dogs to wear all the time. Do I really have to or can I go about breeding traits that might produce a dog that trains easy without shocking him. If anyone wants to use a collar, I am all for them. Hell, I will even come over to your house and hit the button a few times myself if that is what you want. I won't breed to your dog no matter if he is a field champion or or acts like mother teresa because if you have to shock the father, you will probably have to shock the offspring. Maybe all the breeders should include a shocking collar with the pups they sell. When the breed gets to that point, it is a sad day for those resposible. I don't want to part of that little click so I will just keep doing what I am doing, because as I said in my first original post, it won't work for everyone and don't expect anyone to use my methods or even understand them.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 11:12 pm

Chris: WOW! reread the the definition of trauma. That IS the point.

Phillip: Carefull. You might find I have a bit of experiance with hounds. Maybe a bit more then you suspect. If I really were ignorant of hounds I suppose I'd have to resort to personal attacks; but don't worry, I have enough experiance to draw upon so that I won't have to resort to that for a long while.

Bob: carefull! Now your sounding like me. Some time ago I warned that useing the collar would eventually result in one HAVING to use the collar because tractability, over time, would be lost. Tractability, I beleive, is also the key to hounds who train easily to not run deer. Thier desire to please their handler is greater then their desire to run deer. A healthy dose of desire to run rabbits just aids in the process. I beleive I have a basic understanding of what you are doing but I need more specifics to gain a full understanding. Perhaps we can share knowledge. I've been breeding with tractability in mind for some time and my hounds are line bred descended from a family who's breeders also placed a high value on tractability.

REBEL · Post by **REBEL** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 11:31 pm

Lot of opinions,different technics,and in most cases everyone likes their way best,huh-welllllll--- i like the dogs way best,if it is breed right it will act right,it will be friendly,not shy,want to please and prefer to run what it was breed to run first and foremost,that is why i allow mine and the ones i bring into my kennel to free roam-so to speak- after they are acculmated to their surroundings in and near the kennel-if they are breed properly they will know how to get back home and they will soon learn what type game they were breed to run=====BREEDING is the key-my opinion 85% min and the rest enviroment and training==WITHOUT BREEDING YOU GOT "NOTHING"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Are mine born trash proof??some not all---but i will not se an animal suffer cause it can not learn===no more than i will see a human suffer cause they can not learn,sure you have to use corrective measures with children and animals but you do it with LOVE,compassion and understanding "NOT" cause pain and suffering to the point it is abusive and most of us old guys know pain and suffering and we know how to prevent it if in our power to do so.I will give a dog away no matter how much i payed for it or if it is born here===if it is not capable of learning from civil actions-if i feel it has to be abused,hurt or put in sever pain,someone else will own that animal for a pet and i will find it the proper home.

Phillip Smith · Post by **Phillip Smith** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:06 am

Joe, I have no doubt you have a lots of knowledge of dogs, I'm sure more then I ever will. I just don't think you've had much experince with shock collars because you've offered no kind if information that you know how they work. Joe I go for months without shocking my dogs some only once or twice in their lifetime. Maybe I'm always looking at the positive side of things and your always looking at the negative.

wingpatch · Post by **wingpatch** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 6:32 am

Well i guess i just fell off a banana wagon er something,
We have got people on here useing shock therapie, danceing with um, trying to tear there toes off, teaching them the english languige, having a foot race with them,whiping, curseing, yellen stompen, ect.
Now we got some rocket scientist useing the Barbra walters & Dr. phil method . I just can not wait to see what is next..
Hunt the dam dog, if it would rather run a deer than what it was bred for shoot it and get you one that wont, Stop telling each other how stupid they are and get in the brush.
I dought very much there is a real houndman in the whole bunch....
Wingpatch

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 7:51 am

wingpatch wrote:Lots of real good ideas & comments here. Most all of them will&have worked for different dogs. Guys everyone should remember, What works for you might not work for me. Tone of voice, body language, temperment,judgement, The list goes on and on we are all different same as our dogs
Wingpatch

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Breaking from running deer

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