Breaking from running deer

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 12:52 pm

Wingpatch; Okay. Their training starts the day they are born. It might be just getting used to humans or it might be manners training or even exposure to the field. We try to get them in a place where there are plenty of rabbits. As long as there are rabbits we don't care about deer, that is, we don't care if they are present so long as there are rabbits. We never go out on a deer training session with the hounds. We just run them and if and when a hound takes a deer we look at it as a training oppertunity and nothing more. The first thing we do is to get in front of the hounds. For one we know exactly what they are running and two we get into position to down them off the line. The first time they run a deer we down them and snap the lead on while giving the "no" and "ware deer" commands. Then we just stand there ignoring the hound in the middle of the deer line. If the hound attempts to put his nose back in the line we give the commands again with a shaking. Next we walk them away and let them run rabbits. The ware deer phrase can now be used whenever there are deer in the area to tel the hunds to be on their best behavior. If the hound takes a deer again we do the same except to shake them immediatly while giving the commands.

The whole while we are reading the hounds reaction to the correction. if a hound doesn't want to be corrected on the second shaking we scold them all the way back to the truck and there day is finished. Next we scold them as we put them in the kennel and in extreme cases we ignore htem and won't feed them that day. Next we'll bring their kennel mate running while ignoreing them. And finally we'll start showing them attenton and affection after bringing the kennel mate back from running.

Because we are breeders we have a three strikes and your out rule. That is if the hound does not respond favorably to correction after three attempts it is culled and given away as a pet.

In the winter it's much easier. Any time a hound sticks his nose in a deer track and we see them we give the "no" and "ware deer" commands. If the hound tries to stick his nose in it again he gets a good finger ponting along with the commands. Hounds hate to be pointed at when scolded.

All we do is let them know that we don't want them to run deer but we are vary happy when they run rabbits. They also learn, if they take a deer, that we are vary displeased with them. Tractability is the key.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:42 pm

ACOMEAU wrote:First of all I am amazed that some of you have bitten off this topic again, knowing full well how it would play out. Some of you are veterans in this discussion with Joe West, tisk tisk.

Yes, I know, but it's too damned hard to say no.

Bev wrote:Sorry to talk out of school on ya Chris,

The only way I've found to effectively get Beagles to listen and obey voice commands consistently, even from long distances, is to never let them get away with ignoring your command; at any cost -- especially as pups. If it means chasing them down for 3 miles, fine. If it means tickling them with the collar, that's fine too. To each his own. I find the e-collar a lot easier. A few of my dogs no longer wear an e-collar, because I know there's no chance of them disobeying one of my commands, or taking off game (sure, I could get burned, but it hasn't happened yet, knock on wood) -- if I have any doubt with that dog I just won't issue the command; I'll get closer to them to where I can enforce it should they slip 'off the wagon' (that's where the tracking collars come in handy).

If I issua a dog a command, they will obey it. That's all there is to it. They learn much better that way and I enjoy my time in the woods. I can call them in off a check from 200 yards. I can tell them to get in their dog houses and they'll stay there until I release them, with a bowl of feed on the ground. I can halt them in their tracks from a hundred yards when they're sprinting up the road (not on a rabbit). All of that wouldn't be possible without training use of the e-collar.

Of course, some of them aren't tractible, like Joe says, and you'll virtually have to kill them before they'll ever give a rats rear-end about what you want. They go down the road; and fast (can't always put their welfare above yours).

Dogs learn through conditioning and once they realize that they can ignore you, and there are no consequences, then they begin to go the other way -- even many of the tractible ones. I don't care what anyone says; that's just the way Beagles are. God put the majority of their brains in their nose, and for good reason -- those smart bird dogs can't run a rabbit.

I call the e-collar my dog's conscience on a lanyard, and nobody is going to tell me that used properly, they ruin good hounds.

wingpatch · Post by **wingpatch** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:57 pm

See how is that is now we are getting someplace on the subject of breaking a dog off deer. As you see one big point here is first get the dog to use his ears as well as there nose. I think we all can agree on that. There are 100 ways to do that . I have not done this but a very good friend of mine is one of the top bird dog trainers around. He got into beagle a few years ago . He is far better at taining a dog as to what to do or not do than i ever will be.. I am trying to make this as short as i can and show his metod of getting the point across. This is used to teach a bird dog to force retrieve on command. Stand dog on show table or what ever you have.Take a4 ft. pice of rip cord,[ nylon parchute cord] tie small loop in one end, thread free end through loop , place this on dogs front leg above the elbow go down the leg to the dogs two middle toes take a half hitch on the toes ,This is with the free end... give the dog in this case abird dog the command to fetch at the same time slit ely tuging on the cord the dog will pick up the training dumby, That he has been tought to hold in his mouth. He has with great results done this with beagles to teach them no or in the field to show them first hand not to run deer believe me it does work & can be used with other methods to inforce the point desired... It is called a nerve twitch bye bird dog trainers............
Wingpatch

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:58 pm

I'll say this for the use of collars when it comes to handling dogs. I grew up raising and hunting deer hounds. THey were good dogs that loved me as much as I loved them. I could let them out during the summer in the back yard and they would jump all over me and play for hours. They never left the back yard until I told them to and then they went off to condition themselves on rabbits behind the house.

However, once the running began, they did not know the meaning of lets go home. Even after loosing the rabbit or deer for several minutes they would not come back. I've had these same fun loving animals look at me on a logging road, after not running for an hour or more, and run the other way. THey just had no comprehesion of the word "here" when they were hunting. It wasn't as bad as it sounds I guess, but I drove many a tanks of gas out after being only a few yards from them 4 hours earlier.

Now, my rabbit dogs come to me when I call, why, because they know what will happen if they don't. No, I don't call my dogs off rabbits and when I do for some reason, I don't and wouldn't expect them to come to me right away. WHen the race is over, either a dead rabbit or holed, I do expect them to come, maybe not right away, but within 5 or so minutes or they get a bump. Notice I said bump. I never hit the dogs hard unless they just get really stubborn and I promise this does not happen very often. Usually, I'll say 95% of the time, I don't even have to bump them. Now, these dogs are no better at home than those deer hounds were but they are in the field because of the e-collars. Yes, I do spend countless hours obedience training in the yard in the offseason (and sometimes during gunseason), even with the older dogs. I had one get out while feeding today, I called and he came and went right back in. THe collars is the main reason they mind so good and they are there to correct when they don't. I go with people and they are amazed at how well my dogs act when I call them. I don't rely real heavily on the collars for this type thing, but they are there when I need it. Oh, by the way, I have shocked dogs on super high level 5 when on deer and they were burning a rabbit up within 5 minutes.

Anybody can ruin a dog with any method. If you do, it is your fault, not the e-collars fault. I don't like to correct a dog with my hand but I have. Its been a while but he didn't do it again, I promise you. Its all in how you do it and if one dog out of 50 takes it the wrong way then c-ya. I aint got time for those dogs. Like Chris was talking about, they work for me and nobody else, and they better know and respect that or they are gone.

Beagleman973 · Post by **Beagleman973** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:24 pm

Chris, I do agree with you that dogs learn through conditioning. And as Joe said it needs to start when they are young. I don't have to leash my hounds either, but I didn't use an e-collar to do it. I started from the moment they were born, handling them, feeding them, yard work, field work, etc. I use some of Joe's methods, showing disappointment, taking their kennel mates,etc.

I'm stuck somewhere in the middle of this I guess. It sounds like most that have written use a collar with sense and that is the main thing. I restrict my use of the collar to trash breaking only, I used to use the run 'em down method, but I'm kinda like what someone else said. After a broken back and a bad knee my run em down has done run off! Everything else I do I guess is what you would callthe old fashioned way.

An e-collar is not the end all- be all training device. Most seem to know that. As far as using it or not....that's kind of like what truck do you like. I like Dodge, don't want a Ford.....but it doesn't make me right or wrong, just a difference of opinion. E-collars are the same way as long as they aren't abused, but that goes with anything.

I DO know I don't want a trashy hound and I will either correct it or send it down the road. I think we can all agree with that!

John

Beagleman973 · Post by **Beagleman973** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:48 pm

One last thing on this subject, Joe asked anyone if they knew how an e-collar worked and from what he posted I don't think he liked their answers...so here's my attempt!

Joe, an e-collar works through behavior modification by using aversion. To put it simply the aversion is pain through an electrical shock. The principal is that the subject, here the dog, learns to avoid the aversion, the shock, by not repeating the action that caused the pain. A direct opposite pyschological process that what was used to cause the dogs to salvitate when a bell was rung.

The danger is....if the subject doesn't identify what he or it is being punished for.

Just two more thoughts....what you are doing is also behavior modification through aversion. You are just using a different sort of aversion to achieve the same results. And behavior modification through aversion is, has, and probably will continue to also be used on humans to correct some deep psychological problems. And just like beaglers, many psychologists argue its merits. But it is still being done. And just as with beagles, in some cases it does and some cases it doesn't.

Does that answer your question about how the e-collars work?

John

swing · Post by **swing** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 9:50 pm

I am a e-collar man myself, I just dont see where an e-collar is anymore inhumane than going a day without feeding a dog.
Trent

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:55 pm

I have had hounds a long time and I have a method that works for me when it comes to running deer or not handling. First thing is, I never ask a dog to more than he is capable of. I don't set them up for failure and I don't expect total control or immediate results when it comes to handling. I like the natural method of training and let the hound see the natural outcome of his actions. If a dog runs deer, I might try to cut him off and tell him I don't like it. I don't exert too much effort at this and if they take off on one, I just go home. I am a breeder trying to produce as good as dog as possible and I am not too interested in what I call trick dogs. Those are dogs that have a lot of yard training and obediance commands to make them hunt with you. If the deer runner wants to run deer, he will soon find out that when he comes looking for the pack leader,(me) that I am not there. I went home and am eating supper while he is running around trying to figure out what to do. If he likes you and is a good hound, this will have a strong affect on him. I go back the next day sometime in the late evening and see if he is ready to come home. If he is smart like a good hound, he will be waiting for me where I turned him loose. I will take him home and feed him. At 36 hours he is just starting to get hungry and realize that maybe he should pay a little more attention to me and if he is a good dog, he will know that he is suppose to run rabbits and not deer. If he is not a good dog, he will run another deer and that is when I will get rid of him. He is a deer dog and that is the end of the story. Yes I could break him with the collar, but I won't and never will and it has worked out very well for me. I don't want to breed those dogs as they usually have a brain problem concerning the social aspect of his genetics. If he wants to run deer so bad that he will leave the area and his pack leader, I don't want him. A lot of these dogs will break themselves off deer if they are the right kind. Those are the ones I will breed and would never breed a dog that I had to break except in very special circumstances and haven't done it for a long time. Same thing if they won't handle. I don't expect a hound that has no quit in him to handle like a birdog or a house dog. I take it easy with him so as not to break his spirit. I try to let him find out the results of his pack behavior in a way he understands. If he won't come in or hunt with me, I just leave him and go about my business. I may go on with other dogs and keep going or I may go home and leave him. When you learned not to lose your parents it was because you wanted to be with them and not left wasn't it? I also give them a reason to come to me such as food etc. Thye learn that when I call it is for a reason and not just because I am a control freak. I call them to a track also and they learn it is good to stay in the area. When I leave a dog it is always somewhere very rural where no one will mess with them over night. When I go back the next afternoon, if he is a good dog he will be there where I let him out and most will learn that they are not running the show. They adjust their behavior and most will stick right with me from then on. I let mother nature train them and they keep their spirit and will try harder for me when the going gets tough. They learn through a situation they understand and of course always get rewarded for good handling etc by a little sweet talking and a pat or scratch on the head. When they get in the teenage years before they are broke, they can try you a little, but I just let them decide what they want to be and give them a little time to do it. Rome wasn't built in a day and as you get older you learn to slowly shape the behavior in steps. You can tell if your dog is a willing partner with good pack skills and after years of this selection process, you end up breeding a dog that is more cooperative. If they have faults that are genetic or too severe, I simply get rid off them because I don't want to train a dog to do something he is not bred for. I don't expect perfection right away but also won't feed them for 3 years if they act like they won't come around to my way of thinking and hunting. My whole operation is designed around there criteria. it saves me lots of time and resources and obove all else, I am not always having to fight with them to get them to do what I want. I first make sure he is bred for the task I expect and then I let him decide if he wants to go it alone, or go with me and my program. It helps when you keep most of the litters you raise and then you have lots to choose from. I guess I have tried all the methods and this is the one I have settled on. It works for me but won't work for everyone. I am in this to have fun and never get emotional or mad at a dog if I can help it although I have at times but not too much for a long time. I figured that there must be something in it for the dog and he is a better dog for me if I keep the force training to a minumum. He must have the social desire bred into him to cooperate and must have it bred into him to prefer rabbits to deer. Once I am sure he has that, I let him decide in a natural way he understand what he wants to be. One comment on the shock collars. If you are going to use one to train obediance, only use the avoidance method. it is much healthier for the dog and the results are much more satisfactory. It won't work too good for breaking deer runners but once you shock them a couple of times, it could be used in some cases after that. If you don't know the avoidance method, you should learn it. It is positive training and is a very good way to teach obediance. It is better than punishment because with punishment traing you are suppressing a behavior and the animal has to struggle to suppress it. It may remain a struggle and the dog never really integrates it into his intinsic desires. With avoidance training, the dog is constantly rewarding himself for a replacement or opposite behavior from the one you are trying to correct. He doesn't have to struggle to suppress a behavior and is instead replacing it with an opposite behavior which then becomes conditioned and the bad behavior is replaced. It also makes his attitude very positive and eager to perform. His tail comes up and he is a happy dog. As for the punishment training with a shock collar, yes they are affective in suppressing bad behavior and makes the dog behave. Wouldn't you if someone was shocking you? Good luck!

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:31 pm

FYI -- Negative reinforcement and punishment are differant conditioning tools. The confusion comes from the word NEGATIVE. Punishment weakens a behavior because a negative conditon is introduced which causes the individual to supress the behavior. NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT strengthens a behavior because a negative condition is stopped or avoided because of the behavior. For this to take place, there must be a warning of some kind about what will happen if the behavior is not performed. If you hear a train whistle and you stop at the crossing, you avoided a negative condition because when you heard the warning, you stopped the car thus avoiding a negative situation(getting smashed). You did not need to be punished to stop your car because you understood the warning and what it meant and what was coming if didn't perform a specific behavior. That is negative reinforcement. Punishment would be if the train had to smash you before you learned to stop!OUCH!!!!

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:22 am

Phillip Smith: If I have no clue how come YOU were never capable of answering the questions about the collar put to you. The only thing you have been capable of is saying I am wrong without giving any information to back up your claim. Before I posted I asked you several times to give the answer to how the shock collar works but you were incapable of dloing so. Now that I have answered you still can't answer however you want to call me clueless. clueles is not being able to answer at all. Your doing just exactly what I expected. Give no input just say Joe's wrong. To know if I'm wrong or not you have to study the hounds first don't you think?

snowshoehareguide · Post by **snowshoehareguide** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:22 am

bob wrote

It also makes his attitude very positive and eager to perform. His tail comes up and he is a happy dog.

bob this is a great sentence. this is how you tell if you are using e-collar correctly.... or whatever method you are using.. i match my methods to the offence.... running trash or dogs fighting i consider very serious offence.... will get very hard on them... i dont consider treating them like children to be harsh enough for an offence like this... i used to be very hard on dogs... some got what i call that hang dog look... this tells me im doing something wrong. i think everybody should pay attention to how guys are training without collars.... use this then enforce it with the collar.... collar doesnt teach them so much as it is a great way to enforce what youve taught them without it. thats why i say the guys that hate e-collars could do the best with them.. pete

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:29 am

Beagleman973: Aversion is corect I think. But I am wondering if the short burst from the shock collar can cause enough pain to get a hound to leave a hot chase. I've seen hounds running with broken toes, severe cuts, thorns all the way through their foot, sticks lodged in their throat so bad they could not open but continued runing, and run to near exhaustion to name just few things. These things lead me to beleive that the short duration of the shock doesn't produce enough physical pain to make a hound leave a hot line. Therefore the only way that it can make them leave the line is shock, trauma.

Beagleman973 · Post by **Beagleman973** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:10 am

Joe,

I too have seen dogs run with physical injuries like you said. If you think about it though, many physical injuries don't hurt as bad when they happen as they do later. The body goes into shock in that area, blocking some of the pain at the time. It's the body's defense.

A quick electrical shock calls the nerves in the body to contract. A good example they teach all electricians is to never touch something they think could be hot, electrified, with their palm, but to touch it with the back of their hand. Electricity causes the nerves and muscles to contract, and your hand would close, making it impossible to let loose. So....when the dog is shocked his nerves and muscles contract, making the hound momemtarily lose control of his muscles. For those of you that have used e-collars, how many times have you seen the hound buck or jump into the air.

You may think I'm stupid for this, my wife certainly did, but I try all collars on myself before I use them on the hounds. On my leg of course, and trust me, the max setting hurt like he_ _!!! I just gave myseld a short burst, had the muscle contraction, and it continued to hurt for several minutes after. So yeah, Joe, in a way it is trauma. Any time of physical discomfort or mental anguish is trauma.

Finally, the reason I think the collar stops the hound initially is the contraction of muscles causes the hound to lose the scent as he "bucks." After that the pain or trauma if you will becomes the aversion. Mom told you not to touch the hot stove, but I bet at some point you probably did. The pain of the burn became the aversion that kept you from doing it again. It becomes a "learned behavior" through aversion.

As I stated before I have and do use collars, but as a last resort. If I'm dealing with young pups I can still move quick enough to cut them off and correct them through many of the methods you talk about Joe. But sometimes, for whatever reason, a dog may never run a deer until he 2 or 3, and I have to use the collar to correct him. But I do know what it does to him and I don't take it lightly! They are a tool, but can be a dangerous tool, and in my opinion, should only be used for major problems.

Phillip Smith · Post by **Phillip Smith** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:34 am

Joe, I can't stand buy and listen to some of the things you have to say. First, if Beagles are shy or timid as you say it's for one reason only. It's the way their raised. I find that they are very bold friendly dogs if handled and trained from the day their born. Keep them in a pen and then start training them at six months and you could be right.
2nd, I don't know what kind of people you dealing with to be getting the reactions that you speak of. Your always saying we, I think I would change my methods or the people I associate with.
3rd, i've use shock collars for 23 years and have never seen some of the things youv'e described (i'm only stateing facts that I have experinced-not what I've read in some book). In fact I find just the opposite (and from the comments form the others) to be true. What did you do to your dogs to get the reactions that you described? Just yesterday one of my young dogs yelped a couple of time on a Deer. My other dogs checked him and all 3 came back and were wagging their tail, just like they were telling on the other dog. No fright of any kind. In a couple of minutes they were across the road after a rabbit. I would never do anything to my dogs to get the reactions that you are talking about.
4th you keep saying I haven't answered your question about how shock collars work. It's been explained over and over but you still can't get it. One thing for sure you don't understand how they work. I can't beleive some of the comments you make regarding the shock collar. I, as well as most people that know about shock collars find your comments to be a joke.
5th, you still havne't answered how you gained (I know the answer by your post) so much knowledge about shock collars.
6th, your very good at turning things around and I have now doubt you will do the same thing with this post but I and most of these people can see through you.
Why do they call you DODGER and whay are your dogs TIMID? I think we all know the answer to those two questions.
7th all the things you talk about maybe true with some people that are like you and don't know how shock collars work and abuse their dogs but most of the people that are on here know how to use them for what their intended for and don't go around ruining dogs as you suggest. You've heard comment after comment about how friendly dogs are that have had their basic commands renforced with the shock collars but you still don't understand how it's possiable. Because you don't have any first hand knowledge on how shock collars work, just what youv've read or someone told you.

Phillip Smith · Post by **Phillip Smith** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 11:06 am

Joe, also one difference in you and all the other people on this board is they've learned through experince and yes some mistakes may have been made, but you come across as thinking you are the only one that has anykind of knowledge of training dogs. So for you haven't proved you have anykind of knowledge of shock collars and until you do how do you expect people to put any faith in what you say. I learn something new every day. I'm sure your way works great for you and you seem to know what your talking about on that subjuct and I have never said your wrong about your methods and that they do not work. But your wrong about the effects a shock collar has on most dogs. I'm sure your right about the effects it has on some dogs also, but those effects are caused by abuse not careful timing and correction. And I'm talking about dogs that are trained by people that know how to use them and when to apply correction, not by some Idiot that don't know when to let go of the button. I'm just amazed at some of the comments you have about shock collars. Amazing!!