Guest - The undescended testicle can cause discomfort, particularly when running (which was the deciding factor in the decision to geld the thoroughbred Funny Cide). I think it's irresponsible not only to pass on this genetic trait through breeding, but also to not neuter such dogs in the first place (after giving them 6-12 months to drop). In addition to other possible complications (such as life-threatening inflamations due to entanglement), the risk of tumors/testicular cancer is heavily increased in the undescended testicle. An undescended testicle is bad for the dog and bad for any descendents of the dog.
You may be able to surgically get the testicle to drop, but the dog should still not be bred.
Personally, if I had the best-looking, best-hunting, best-sounding beagle that ever lived, whose only fault was an undescended testicle, there's no doubt I'd still have him neutered. I can't think of a defensible reason for passing down health-related genetic problems or putting a dog at an elevated risk of potentially fatal health problems. Those should be the first faults breeders weed-out.
Conformation ?
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Guest
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Guest
Little Dog:
You asked if hunting beagles have a different standard set by the AKC vs the show dogs. The AKC does not write up the standard, National Beagle Club, the breed parent club, does that. Every registry (AKC, UKC, CKC) has the same beagle standard.
The standard describes what the breed should look like, some even describe what proper temperment should be. The standard is just a description of the breed, it wasn't pulled out of thin air, it was written up to give breeders an idea of how the breed should look. And in beagles and most other breeds, the standard was written up many years before showing became popular. Show dogs are just bred with the goal of being the "ideal" looking beagle.
Whether you are interested in showing or not, beagles look the way they do for a reason. THe standart is meant to guide, not instruct. When you see show breeders taking out the rulers to measure width of shoulder or something similar, you klnow they have missed the point. And IMO, when a beagler has never read the standard even once, they too are also missing a great aspect of what it is to breed beagles...
You asked if hunting beagles have a different standard set by the AKC vs the show dogs. The AKC does not write up the standard, National Beagle Club, the breed parent club, does that. Every registry (AKC, UKC, CKC) has the same beagle standard.
The standard describes what the breed should look like, some even describe what proper temperment should be. The standard is just a description of the breed, it wasn't pulled out of thin air, it was written up to give breeders an idea of how the breed should look. And in beagles and most other breeds, the standard was written up many years before showing became popular. Show dogs are just bred with the goal of being the "ideal" looking beagle.
Whether you are interested in showing or not, beagles look the way they do for a reason. THe standart is meant to guide, not instruct. When you see show breeders taking out the rulers to measure width of shoulder or something similar, you klnow they have missed the point. And IMO, when a beagler has never read the standard even once, they too are also missing a great aspect of what it is to breed beagles...
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snowshoehareguide
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:52 pm
- Location: brownington vermont
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MasonsBeagles
One
This is the answer to the one testicle. I have one also. It is a common occurance in the beagle strain. I read this in a book about the beagle hound. I would not have a problem breeding mine, because the package dont run the rabbit. It doesnt seem to bother mine at all. Years ago I had one also. I am sure people will dipute the fact that I said it is common but it was in a book listing faults or traits of the hounds. Ear problems was one, and there were a few others. After reading it and having witnessed some of the things I was put to ease. Another one that was listed was that the dogs had an occassion to eat fecees. I have had several people that breed dogs tell me that well my line doesnt do that. I say if your dog is what you like dont worry about that because it came somewhere back in his bloodlines and probably only shows up every know and then.
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Chuck Terry
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:26 pm
MasonsBeagles: your post gave me a much needed laugh! I almost choked when I read your second sentence and then I realized what you meant after reading the third sentence. On a serious note, I have a friend who has founded his kennel largely on the blood of a half brother/half sister cross out of heavily linebred stock. That cross resulted in a couple of crooked tail dogs. "No big deal" has always been his attititude - "the tail does not keep them from running a rabbit" according to him. To an extent, I see his point. However, even a couple of generations removed, crooked tail dogs still show up (one or two per litter average I would say). I offended him when I told him that although I liked a dog I bought from him pretty well that I did not plan to breed him giving his crooked tail as a reason. The way I see it, doing so would not be for the betterment of the breed. We pass on too many problems unintentionally already. I can't quote him directly but Gill Davis cautioned about letting "little things" slide in the selection of breeding stock. In my limited experience, I have seen things surface that I know instantly exactly which ancestor several generations back passed that particular fault on. Even when the majority are turning out well, that one individual will eventually surface that makes you say, "maybe I should not have bred that one" and "how many of the good ones are carriers of those genes?"
If the problem is common with beagles, that doesn't make it a non-issue...it makes it more of an issue. Go tell a golden retriever owner not to worry about hip dysplasia, or a Doberman pinscher owner not to worry about cardiomyopathy or vWD, just because those problems are common to their breed. The the fact that a genetic health problem is common in their breed bothers and worries them. If cryptorchidism is common with beagles, shouldn't it be a high priority to weed it out? Comparing the eating of feces or the necessity to keep an eye out for ear infections with beagles to a health problem that can cause life-threatening complications and a significantly higher risk of cancer is absurd.
Even if cryptorchids are only being produced "once in awhile," the breeding of gene carriers is continuously producing more carriers. If you breed a carrier to a normal dog, each dog in the litter has a 50% chance of being a carrier of the gene. Breeding two carriers together produces 25% normal, 50% carriers, and 25% cryptorchids. Breeding a cryptorchid to a carrier gives you 75% crytorchids and 25% carriers. And breeding a cryptorchid to a non-carrier gives you 100% carriers. So a cryptorchid cannot produce a genetically-clean puppy, and you can produce generation-after-generation of puppies you think are free of the gene but who are still carriers and are capable of producing cryptorchids when bred with another carrier. Why breed when you are knowingly hurting the breed by promoting health defects? "The package don't hunt," but neither does a dog who is dead or cancer-ridden because of a genetically defective package. The only number I've found on any website is that a cryptorchid is 10 times more likely to have testicular cancer than a non-cryptorchid. And I imagine that the survival rate is lower with cryptorchids, too, because it's a lot easier to spot tumors early on dangling testicles than when they're in the abdomen. I'd also think it's harder to treat cancer in a cryptorchid.
I encourage anyone to search the internet or ask some vets about cryptorchidism. I have yet to find a single one that doesn't suggest neutering the dog immediately, let alone breed it. In fact, many suggest not even breeding the parents of the cryptorchid, as they are both at least carriers of the gene.
Even if cryptorchids are only being produced "once in awhile," the breeding of gene carriers is continuously producing more carriers. If you breed a carrier to a normal dog, each dog in the litter has a 50% chance of being a carrier of the gene. Breeding two carriers together produces 25% normal, 50% carriers, and 25% cryptorchids. Breeding a cryptorchid to a carrier gives you 75% crytorchids and 25% carriers. And breeding a cryptorchid to a non-carrier gives you 100% carriers. So a cryptorchid cannot produce a genetically-clean puppy, and you can produce generation-after-generation of puppies you think are free of the gene but who are still carriers and are capable of producing cryptorchids when bred with another carrier. Why breed when you are knowingly hurting the breed by promoting health defects? "The package don't hunt," but neither does a dog who is dead or cancer-ridden because of a genetically defective package. The only number I've found on any website is that a cryptorchid is 10 times more likely to have testicular cancer than a non-cryptorchid. And I imagine that the survival rate is lower with cryptorchids, too, because it's a lot easier to spot tumors early on dangling testicles than when they're in the abdomen. I'd also think it's harder to treat cancer in a cryptorchid.
I encourage anyone to search the internet or ask some vets about cryptorchidism. I have yet to find a single one that doesn't suggest neutering the dog immediately, let alone breed it. In fact, many suggest not even breeding the parents of the cryptorchid, as they are both at least carriers of the gene.
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MasonsBeagles
Sorry to offend
OK i need to double check my use of sentence. I got a good laugh about it too. No im fine. ha
You are right about breeding traits. I definately believe in promoting the breed but the parents of this hound that I own have had numerous litters and this is the one dog that had an issue. What causes the problem to begin with is it genetics, is it in the womb what? I dont know. Yes vets have recommended neutering. They also reccomend me bring my dog in every month for vaccinations and any other thing they can make a buck on.
Truth is I dont have an issue breeding a dog with one testicle if the dog is a well above average rabbit dog. I believe in promoting the breed but will take a one balled good dog over a two balled bad dog any day.
Just my opinion and I am definately not an expert. If I do breed a one balled dog, I will be more than glad to tell any and everyone who considers a pup that the dad is one balled. Then they can make their minds up. If I cant get rid of the pups then Ill name my kennel the "One Ball Wonders". If every beagle since the history of time was not bred for one thing or the other then we would not be running dogs today because none are perfect.
There is not a dog that has had numerous breedings in the world or ever in existence that has not thrown a pup with some sort of defect.
Well Happy Running.
Will
You are right about breeding traits. I definately believe in promoting the breed but the parents of this hound that I own have had numerous litters and this is the one dog that had an issue. What causes the problem to begin with is it genetics, is it in the womb what? I dont know. Yes vets have recommended neutering. They also reccomend me bring my dog in every month for vaccinations and any other thing they can make a buck on.
Truth is I dont have an issue breeding a dog with one testicle if the dog is a well above average rabbit dog. I believe in promoting the breed but will take a one balled good dog over a two balled bad dog any day.
Just my opinion and I am definately not an expert. If I do breed a one balled dog, I will be more than glad to tell any and everyone who considers a pup that the dad is one balled. Then they can make their minds up. If I cant get rid of the pups then Ill name my kennel the "One Ball Wonders". If every beagle since the history of time was not bred for one thing or the other then we would not be running dogs today because none are perfect.
There is not a dog that has had numerous breedings in the world or ever in existence that has not thrown a pup with some sort of defect.
Well Happy Running.
Will
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MasonsBeagles
to Boomer
Well I got to thinking about it and rereading the other posts. Boomer and Mr. Terry are alot more knowledgable than I on the subject.
Do not want to argue at all, I get on here and talk to other houndsmen to learn more about the hobby I enjoy.
Just posted my opinion.
Breeding dogs like anything requires research, opinions should be sought and only then can an educated decision be made. There are way too many people breeding dogs to just be breeding dogs.
Truth be known I am not a breeder and do not intend to become one so should have just stayed out of this one.
Happy Running and I hope I didnt pee anyone off with my opinion.
Will
Do not want to argue at all, I get on here and talk to other houndsmen to learn more about the hobby I enjoy.
Just posted my opinion.
Breeding dogs like anything requires research, opinions should be sought and only then can an educated decision be made. There are way too many people breeding dogs to just be breeding dogs.
Truth be known I am not a breeder and do not intend to become one so should have just stayed out of this one.
Happy Running and I hope I didnt pee anyone off with my opinion.
Will
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Guest
Sorry, that was me above,sent ther thing too soon.
Masons Beagles: I have to disagree with your take on breeding cryptorchid dogs. A beagle is not a hunting machine, its a living animal, and if there is something wrong, though it may not affect its running, we must take care to help that hound and not pass such a defect on to a new generation. Would you breed a beagle with epilepsy, hypothyroidism, cherry eye?
I just think some beaglewrs need to take a good hard look at their ethics. Just because a beagle can run and hunt doesnt mean it should be bred.
Masons Beagles: I have to disagree with your take on breeding cryptorchid dogs. A beagle is not a hunting machine, its a living animal, and if there is something wrong, though it may not affect its running, we must take care to help that hound and not pass such a defect on to a new generation. Would you breed a beagle with epilepsy, hypothyroidism, cherry eye?
I just think some beaglewrs need to take a good hard look at their ethics. Just because a beagle can run and hunt doesnt mean it should be bred.
I to used to wonder about conformation a lot. In the past few years I have been lucky enough to get a few hounds with above average conformation that hunt hard and run good also. During the winter of "01-'02 while I was unemployed I got a lesson in conformation from the beagles and mother nature. I hunted hard all winter, averaging 8 hr.s a day, 6 days a week. At the time I had approximately 9 dogs here in my pens and for a month had a male that belonged to a friend here also. The male, who has above average conformation, had recently come off the trial circuit and was hard as a rock, having been run for countless hours every week and soloed for ungodly amounts of time so he could compete. I did a lot of switching of my dogs the month the male was here because they were simply not in the shape he was in and would tire more easily. At the end of the month all of my females were in much better shape and he went home. The rest of the winter we continued to hunt hard. Now the male had been with us the month of November and our season continues thru February. By the end of January it was very apparent to me how important conformation can be to someone that hunts hard. The 3 females with good conformation not only got in shape faster than the rest of the dogs but maintained that level of conditioning better. They could hunt hard day after day and not wear down. The dogs with slightly crooked legs and other conformation faults not only took longer to get in shape but never reached the level of conditioning that the others did and would wear out and have to be put up for a few days to rest while the others were still running daily. Limping and dragging tails were common on the dogs with the lower level of conformation while the other girls would walk out of the woods with their tails held high and bounce in the gait. It was a lesson I won't soon forget.
Maybe we should keep in mind that the breed standard was written a long time ago when people still counted on their hounds for putting food on the table and maybe spent more time in the field doing it. Someone that only runs twice a week for a couple hours and maybe trials occasionally might never see the benefits of good conformation over bad but in my opinion if they are breeding and not considering conformation as part of the overall package they are doing the breed a disservice. I know that if I end up sending a pup to someone that does hunt hard or under rigorous conditions I want them to be happy with the dog and not have to leave it in the pen half the time because it is worn out from bad conformation!
Maybe we should keep in mind that the breed standard was written a long time ago when people still counted on their hounds for putting food on the table and maybe spent more time in the field doing it. Someone that only runs twice a week for a couple hours and maybe trials occasionally might never see the benefits of good conformation over bad but in my opinion if they are breeding and not considering conformation as part of the overall package they are doing the breed a disservice. I know that if I end up sending a pup to someone that does hunt hard or under rigorous conditions I want them to be happy with the dog and not have to leave it in the pen half the time because it is worn out from bad conformation!
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bob huffman
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Guest
Tom, great post!
It's so important for us all to remember that the standard was not pulled out of thin air, in the days when it was originally written up, it was basically a description of the best beagles. And we have to remember that all purebreds look the way they do because of their original job... the work they are bred for gives them their conformation. All Labsshould have moderately thick bone, an otterlike tail, webbed feet and thick short coat. Everything from the shape of the hear to the tip of the tail determine whether or not this will be a good water retrieving dog... too much bone and too long or short a back, the dog could tire very easily and drown, and be more succeptable to the cold waters. His safety depends on his correct conformation.
I have a bluetick with very slightly dwarfed front legs, very slightly bowed back legs, and an overly long back. His stamina goes quickly. It's very hard to watch when his body can't keep up with the sharpness of his mind...
It's so important for us all to remember that the standard was not pulled out of thin air, in the days when it was originally written up, it was basically a description of the best beagles. And we have to remember that all purebreds look the way they do because of their original job... the work they are bred for gives them their conformation. All Labsshould have moderately thick bone, an otterlike tail, webbed feet and thick short coat. Everything from the shape of the hear to the tip of the tail determine whether or not this will be a good water retrieving dog... too much bone and too long or short a back, the dog could tire very easily and drown, and be more succeptable to the cold waters. His safety depends on his correct conformation.
I have a bluetick with very slightly dwarfed front legs, very slightly bowed back legs, and an overly long back. His stamina goes quickly. It's very hard to watch when his body can't keep up with the sharpness of his mind...
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Chuck Terry
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:26 pm