Wingpatch your wasteing your breath, just like I am. Joe is one of those guys that knows it all and he's right and anyone that disagrees with him is wrong.
First off Joe I watch my dogs every day I run them. Sure at times I've wondered if the were on a deer but it turned out to be a rabbit. I would never shock them unless I was dead certain they were on a deer. One thing for sure when a pack of dogs that you know like I know mine hits a deer you will sure know it unless your totaly ingnorant.. I agree some people can't tell the difference. I take it your one of them.
I've noticed every time someone ask for advice and it's different then you beleive, then you start telling how everyone else is wrong. Might just be you could be wrong sometimes too. It's hard to learn something new when you know everything JOE!!!! I don't care what some old man told you years ago, but dog training is for more advanced then it use to be whether you believe it or not. Because of the E-COLLAR!
Breaking from running deer
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
-
Phillip Smith
Bev, I know what your talking about. I hunted with a guy once that had dogs that he would bet would not run Deer. Well after killing several rabbits we switched spots and shortly had a nother race going. It took me about two to 3 minutes to figure out they were after a deer. It was a little doe and ran like a swamp rabbit. But their voices were totaly different. He didn't beleive me but when we caught them off he did.
Bev wrote
A big hint-and-a-half for those that run more than one hound at a time: the pack goes screaming out and the deer-broke hound comes back tail-tucked. Best thing a person can do is have one bonified deer-broke hound in the pack. They are worth their weight in gold
snip
In spades ! I've had coonhounds and beagles that were just such dogs.If they came back looking like
"I just wanted to let you know Boss the others are running a muck".Well then you could simply hit the button and bring the others to their knees.
I would not shock just by voice alone unless I saw the off game.Yes they scream out on deer and run with their heads up which changes the way a dog or pack sounds BUT I'd go slow without seeing off game.
As to running em down,,,,I don't do that.I send the message to em:)
Hunt6 (David)
A big hint-and-a-half for those that run more than one hound at a time: the pack goes screaming out and the deer-broke hound comes back tail-tucked. Best thing a person can do is have one bonified deer-broke hound in the pack. They are worth their weight in gold
snip
In spades ! I've had coonhounds and beagles that were just such dogs.If they came back looking like
"I just wanted to let you know Boss the others are running a muck".Well then you could simply hit the button and bring the others to their knees.
I would not shock just by voice alone unless I saw the off game.Yes they scream out on deer and run with their heads up which changes the way a dog or pack sounds BUT I'd go slow without seeing off game.
As to running em down,,,,I don't do that.I send the message to em:)
Hunt6 (David)
????
There is a friend of mine that comes over to run , He bought a dog off a man and wanted to run it. We let his dog start the rabbit before mine were turned loose. They ran good for over an hour ,then the rabbit hold. In about2or3 min. his dog started running again,30 mins. later he said to me what is going on. I told him his dog was back tracken,He didnt say anything 20mins. later i told him not only is she back tracking she is running dog tracks,He said to me you can tell that by her mouth, I said no i cant tell it by my dog,he has not said a word the whole time and i know she is running dog tracks cause she went the same way they came from and i know she can not still smell the same track. But that dogs can trail there self hrs. after they have been some place. You are right bev. some people can tell in a couple barks what a dog is or is not doing.
Wingpatch
Wingpatch
-
bob huffman
If you have a deer runner and can't afford a shock collar, ask your vet to give you some apamorphine in a dose that will make your dog sick. When you see a deer you think your dog will run, lead him to the track and make sure he acts like he is going to run it. Give him the shot and turn him loose on the track. In a vert short while he will puking his guts out and will sure quit the deer race and usually comes back to you looking really sad. Once will get most of them. Good luck!
Bev had it right with her post about Ralphs ability to tell if the hounds were on off game. Ralph can tell when they are on off game "MOST" of the time. There are times however when even Ralph will be fooled. The same is true for anyone. Now if you correct a deer runner, with any correction method, based upon sound you will be right MOST of the time but it only takes one time to ruin a good hound.
Therefor Wingpatch and Phillip, a beagler can tell when his hounds are on off game MOST of the time just by their sound, But, MOST of the time is not good enough; you must be certain before you administer your correction method. Now you could have been fooled already but you wouldn't know it because you go on sound alone. Your assumeing that they're on deer because of the sound but you never confirm it so you WILL miss those times when your assumption was wrong. Our policy when we hear what sounds like a deer chase is to say uh-oh that doesn't sound good lets go check on them. MOST of the time we're right and the hounds need correcting but sometimes we're not and we know it because we confirm our suspicion. That is why you CANNOT tell what the hounds are doing by voice alone.
Phillip Smith the old man your speaking down of forgot more about hounds at the time of his passing then you will ever learn about them. That is, you can't hold a candle to him; and don't ever be fool enough to think you can.
What would you have me do when I disagree with you? Say I agree with you anyway just because you said it? I think that's how we got brace hounds. Well now if the e-collar has made training of hounds more advanced then suppose you tell us how that is and be specific, that is go through every aspect of the training and it's effects upon the hounds, not just how quick and easy it is we all know that is the attraction of the e=collar but an in depth analisis of how and why it works and it's effects on the hounds. So far you've avoided such posts. If your knowledge is greater then that of some old man it should be a simple task for you. Heck I'd be happy if you could describe how the collar works, what effect it has on the hounds that makes it work.
Therefor Wingpatch and Phillip, a beagler can tell when his hounds are on off game MOST of the time just by their sound, But, MOST of the time is not good enough; you must be certain before you administer your correction method. Now you could have been fooled already but you wouldn't know it because you go on sound alone. Your assumeing that they're on deer because of the sound but you never confirm it so you WILL miss those times when your assumption was wrong. Our policy when we hear what sounds like a deer chase is to say uh-oh that doesn't sound good lets go check on them. MOST of the time we're right and the hounds need correcting but sometimes we're not and we know it because we confirm our suspicion. That is why you CANNOT tell what the hounds are doing by voice alone.
Phillip Smith the old man your speaking down of forgot more about hounds at the time of his passing then you will ever learn about them. That is, you can't hold a candle to him; and don't ever be fool enough to think you can.
What would you have me do when I disagree with you? Say I agree with you anyway just because you said it? I think that's how we got brace hounds. Well now if the e-collar has made training of hounds more advanced then suppose you tell us how that is and be specific, that is go through every aspect of the training and it's effects upon the hounds, not just how quick and easy it is we all know that is the attraction of the e=collar but an in depth analisis of how and why it works and it's effects on the hounds. So far you've avoided such posts. If your knowledge is greater then that of some old man it should be a simple task for you. Heck I'd be happy if you could describe how the collar works, what effect it has on the hounds that makes it work.
?????
Hay joe, sounds like you are feeling better you been taken your medication. L.O.L.
Now were are back on deer bracken, No one should use any means to break a dog without knowing for sure. This is what i always have said.
Over use of any breaking tool will do more harm than good.
I have found in teaching any animal anything You never want to break his spirit.. Joe by the way my wife has 2 st. bernards i would like you pick up and give a good shaking...Wingpatch
Now were are back on deer bracken, No one should use any means to break a dog without knowing for sure. This is what i always have said.
Over use of any breaking tool will do more harm than good.
I have found in teaching any animal anything You never want to break his spirit.. Joe by the way my wife has 2 st. bernards i would like you pick up and give a good shaking...Wingpatch
?????
One more thing i would like to say.
The old timer that tought me everthing i know, I met in 8/8/ 1943.
Seems he always tought me what not to do, Then let me figure out what to do. I am not telling anybody to put the electric collar on them self first.[just take my word for it] but you better be dam sure before you us it. In the right hands it is one of the best tools around.
The last thing that old timer tought me in his last breath was,
APPRECIATION........
My Father...............Wingpatch
The old timer that tought me everthing i know, I met in 8/8/ 1943.
Seems he always tought me what not to do, Then let me figure out what to do. I am not telling anybody to put the electric collar on them self first.[just take my word for it] but you better be dam sure before you us it. In the right hands it is one of the best tools around.
The last thing that old timer tought me in his last breath was,
APPRECIATION........
My Father...............Wingpatch
-
Phillip Smith
Joe, I think most people that have had hounds for a while know how to use E-collars. My knowledge of dogs is limited as is yours but one thing is for sure I know when someone is blowing smoke! Do you not read the other post. Know one said they shocked their dogs unless they were sure. I said I DIDN'T unless I knew for sure. I can always tell when they are running a Deer if it is a deer but sometimes If it is a rabbit that is running out of hearing I get to wondering but am not sure so I would not shock them. That's what everyone is saying but you keep saying got to be sure. We've said we want shock without being sure.
Most people post their opinions and that's it but you come on hear and start telling people how wrong they are. What makes you so much better then everyone else.
Joe just because some one is old and had dogs all their lives don't mean they know it all. I sure don't. But one thing for sure is I've bred, raised and trained squirrel dogs that has been sold for thousands of dollars. One a man turned down $40,000.00. She made a GrandSquirrel champion in less the 5 months. She is not even close to being as good as some I've bred. When I quit raising squirrel dogs I was selling young started dogs for $1000.00 to $1500.00 and the people never tried them just bought them on my word. So don't tell me I don't know how to train dogs. It might not be the way you do it but it will work just as well and in some cases better and some not as good. I have no disagreement with your methods just the fact that everytime this discussion comes up you tell everyone how wrong the E-collar is. Joe everyone on here is not ingnorant of training dogs. I'm always trying to find better ways to do things not go backwards 30 years! I agree there are some dogs ruined by the E-collar. But a lot of time some of these dogs that have been abused by other means can be corrected by the use of the E-collar also. I've taken some mighty shy mistreated dogs and made good bold dogs out of them with the collars. Maybe one of these days you might agree with someone else! However I doubt it! Good LUCK!
Most people post their opinions and that's it but you come on hear and start telling people how wrong they are. What makes you so much better then everyone else.
Joe just because some one is old and had dogs all their lives don't mean they know it all. I sure don't. But one thing for sure is I've bred, raised and trained squirrel dogs that has been sold for thousands of dollars. One a man turned down $40,000.00. She made a GrandSquirrel champion in less the 5 months. She is not even close to being as good as some I've bred. When I quit raising squirrel dogs I was selling young started dogs for $1000.00 to $1500.00 and the people never tried them just bought them on my word. So don't tell me I don't know how to train dogs. It might not be the way you do it but it will work just as well and in some cases better and some not as good. I have no disagreement with your methods just the fact that everytime this discussion comes up you tell everyone how wrong the E-collar is. Joe everyone on here is not ingnorant of training dogs. I'm always trying to find better ways to do things not go backwards 30 years! I agree there are some dogs ruined by the E-collar. But a lot of time some of these dogs that have been abused by other means can be corrected by the use of the E-collar also. I've taken some mighty shy mistreated dogs and made good bold dogs out of them with the collars. Maybe one of these days you might agree with someone else! However I doubt it! Good LUCK!
Allow me to touch on this subject of "ruining good dogs" by the use of a shock collar. I have to question the mental fortitude of a dog that would be ruined by one or even two wrong shocks. I step on one of Sydney's feet almost daily because she's always under mine. She lets out a big yelp, I say to her "Well, dam*it, stay out from under my feet!!!" Even though she doesn't set out to do wrong, she gets hurt and I yell at her on top of it all, she remains unaffected. Dogs that have been hit by cars and survived still run the streets. I've seen stories on the news where a cat or dogs has been doused in gasoline and then torched by some idiot, survive and still love humans. I've seen hounds attacked by coyotes that will eventually get back in the brush. If a hounds' psyche is so delicate that he can't take something unfortunate happening to him without being "ruined", I question whether or not he was really a "good one".
Dogs are more than muscle, bone and nose. I don't want one with a wimpy brain. They need to be resilient in this area, too. A timid dog would be easily ruined (and what I mean by timid is not "shy", but "apprehensive" instead of bold). We have enough timidity (apprehensiveness) in the Beagle breed - we should seek to breed only those who match up in intellectual strength what they possess in physical talent and abilities.
Let me tell you a funny story on myself so you can see how many colors are in the spectrum when it comes to mind/spirit:
When I was 9 or 10 years old, I used to purposefully scare the snot out of my mother. She is easily startled and I knew it even then. One evening when she got home from work (4:30 - on the dot) I had the front screen door shut, but the wooden door open and me hiding behind it. I counted her steps - I could hear her approaching in her heels. One, two, three, four steps to the stoop, one, two steps up, then three more steps to the front door. As she got what I felt was the closest to me, I jumped out from behind the door and yell "YAAAHHHH!" at her. (LOL). She screamed, went three feet in the air, and in a natural reflex slapped my face on the way back down. My cheek was stinging, but I was rolling on the floor giggling like a maniac. This was so funny to me that I did this every two or three days (so she'd never know exactly when it was going to happen and let her guard down). I got my face slapped every time, but I didn't care, the pay-off was too good! (lol - still giggling at the memories).
So it is with the confirmed deer runner. You can shock'em, and shock'em some more, but they'll endure the pain because the pay-off is too good. In while we would consider this hound to be too hard-headed or stupid, or too unwilling to work with us, truth is they are probably the most resilient in spirit and drive. At the other end of the scale is the hound that will curl up and quit after one or two errant shocks or spankings. There are many other levels of intelligence and tolerance inbetween these two. We should breed for the whole dog, not just performance x conformation, but add strength of mind/spirit, in there too.
I'm not saying be foolish with a collar or discipline. We're all big folks here and those of us with years of experience understand the difference between willful abuse and an honest mistake. Unfortunate things, natural and unnatural are going to happen to our hounds throughout their lives and they need the mental toughness to rebound. That's only common sense.
Dogs are more than muscle, bone and nose. I don't want one with a wimpy brain. They need to be resilient in this area, too. A timid dog would be easily ruined (and what I mean by timid is not "shy", but "apprehensive" instead of bold). We have enough timidity (apprehensiveness) in the Beagle breed - we should seek to breed only those who match up in intellectual strength what they possess in physical talent and abilities.
Let me tell you a funny story on myself so you can see how many colors are in the spectrum when it comes to mind/spirit:
When I was 9 or 10 years old, I used to purposefully scare the snot out of my mother. She is easily startled and I knew it even then. One evening when she got home from work (4:30 - on the dot) I had the front screen door shut, but the wooden door open and me hiding behind it. I counted her steps - I could hear her approaching in her heels. One, two, three, four steps to the stoop, one, two steps up, then three more steps to the front door. As she got what I felt was the closest to me, I jumped out from behind the door and yell "YAAAHHHH!" at her. (LOL). She screamed, went three feet in the air, and in a natural reflex slapped my face on the way back down. My cheek was stinging, but I was rolling on the floor giggling like a maniac. This was so funny to me that I did this every two or three days (so she'd never know exactly when it was going to happen and let her guard down). I got my face slapped every time, but I didn't care, the pay-off was too good! (lol - still giggling at the memories).
So it is with the confirmed deer runner. You can shock'em, and shock'em some more, but they'll endure the pain because the pay-off is too good. In while we would consider this hound to be too hard-headed or stupid, or too unwilling to work with us, truth is they are probably the most resilient in spirit and drive. At the other end of the scale is the hound that will curl up and quit after one or two errant shocks or spankings. There are many other levels of intelligence and tolerance inbetween these two. We should breed for the whole dog, not just performance x conformation, but add strength of mind/spirit, in there too.
I'm not saying be foolish with a collar or discipline. We're all big folks here and those of us with years of experience understand the difference between willful abuse and an honest mistake. Unfortunate things, natural and unnatural are going to happen to our hounds throughout their lives and they need the mental toughness to rebound. That's only common sense.
Thank You Bev! I have stayed out of this topic, because I have been there done that on here all ready. What I have said in past post on this topic "Joe West VS The world" is, Dogs can be ruined by a wipping, shaking, verbal scolding, or electricity, those dogs are weak in spirit and have to go.
Take a Kid Hunting and Fishing
-
Beagleman973
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Southern Illinois
While I agree with what you said about the degrees of intelligence and resilience in dogs Bev, there are also degrees and variances in correction/punishment. Good hounds, that are resilient, DO get ruined by overzealous correction sometimes. A quick slap or stepping on their foot is one thing, staying on the button until the collar times out and then hitting it again because you're upset because you "think" you hound ran a deer can and does ruin good hounds. And that does happen whether anyone wants to admit to it or not. You're mad and you want to make sure the hound knows it!
As far as intelligence goes, sometimes an extremely intelligent hound can be ruined easier than one that isn't so smart. Most dogs want to please you, it's in their nature. Case in point, I have a Brittany, yeah I know a bird dog not a beagle, but I can scold her and she will sulk for hours. Most other times she is extremely bold and high spirited. BUT she wants to please me and takes it very hard when she doesn't. With a dog with this attitude, if you really zapped her and she was actually doing what she was supposed to, instead of running a deer or something else, how would she interpret it? Would she eventually recover, I think so, but how many times could you shock her for the wrong reason before from her wanting to please me and avoid being punished she would quit what I actually wanted her to do.
I'm not saying you don't have some valid points.....but as with most things....I don't think it's that clear cut. Stereotypes are many times used, and as we all know, many times they are wrong.
I guess maybe Joe isn't alone. I do use e-collars, but I also agree with much of what Joe is saying! Good hounds can and do get ruined!! I would rather let the hound get away with it once then punish him when he was doing what he was supposed to. Eventually I will catch him doing it and then break him. IMHO!
As far as intelligence goes, sometimes an extremely intelligent hound can be ruined easier than one that isn't so smart. Most dogs want to please you, it's in their nature. Case in point, I have a Brittany, yeah I know a bird dog not a beagle, but I can scold her and she will sulk for hours. Most other times she is extremely bold and high spirited. BUT she wants to please me and takes it very hard when she doesn't. With a dog with this attitude, if you really zapped her and she was actually doing what she was supposed to, instead of running a deer or something else, how would she interpret it? Would she eventually recover, I think so, but how many times could you shock her for the wrong reason before from her wanting to please me and avoid being punished she would quit what I actually wanted her to do.
I'm not saying you don't have some valid points.....but as with most things....I don't think it's that clear cut. Stereotypes are many times used, and as we all know, many times they are wrong.
I guess maybe Joe isn't alone. I do use e-collars, but I also agree with much of what Joe is saying! Good hounds can and do get ruined!! I would rather let the hound get away with it once then punish him when he was doing what he was supposed to. Eventually I will catch him doing it and then break him. IMHO!
If you can't run with the BIG DOGS stay on the porch!