Conformation ?

Little Dog · Post by **Little Dog** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:41 pm

What is behind good conformation? By looking at a hounds build and structure can we determine if he/she has a more durable frame or more apt to last longer in the field or what? I guess what I am saying is, can we, with our experience set a standard in our terms, which tells by looks what is a better dog?

I’m not sold on confirmation making that much of a difference, because I’ve seen so many ugly dogs do just fine with a different body shape than what we’ve predetermined as best. Some of you folks referred to horses. Anybody remember the horse named John Henry – won 30 stakes races and 16 of 23 starts in little over a one-year span. Sway back – short-legged horse kicked everybody’s tail.

Maybe you’ll think I’m showing my ignorance, but I wish someone would explain the idea behind confirmation or why it makes such a difference.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:25 pm

I think its a very intelligent question. In beagles moderation is KEY. Moderately small, well muscled but nothing overdone. Head should be moderately bricky in appearance, ears moderately long, tail moderately long, moderately boned, not leggy, not walking tree trunks...
A snipey head or muzzle is a fault, as is overly long back. The back is supposed to be fairly short, but not so much that it makes the dog look compact, as some of the show lines tend to do. Feet should be round and catlike, tail should be as straight as possible. I've never seen a field line dog with a tail as arrow straight as the show lines, and IMO a beagle's tail should not be straight as a post. A little crook is correct, but what is called a gay tail, that is, one curved over like a teapot, is incorrect.
If you are only breeding for field work, the standard doesnt have to be studied, but if you follow the general guidelines you will get a beagle thats intelligent and has correct conformation.
Theres a book for about $6 that is for beagle pet owners, but has a nice illustration of the standard in the front. I dont remember who wrote it but its called The Essential Beagle. If you're looking to improve conformation somewhat, something like that should help guide you... Hope this helped!

wingpatch · Post by **wingpatch** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 2:20 pm

What,,,,,You got to be kinden

Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:36 pm

Little Dog,

There are exceptions to every rule. With thoroughbreds, most sway-backs, crooked-legs, etc, either never make it to the track or can't last more than a few races before career-ending physical problems surface. Yearlings at sales have brought in as much as $12 million, and there are a few each year that go for at least a few million dollars. You can be sure they have flawless conformations, but they're not being bought as window dressing or to look pretty out on the farm!

Everyone's got something they look for in a dog, and I think a lot of people either consciously or unconsciously look for things they had in a past dog that worked well.

Personally, I like dogs built close to the standard. I do think the thinner, leggier dogs tend to be faster and more athletic, but I don't necessarily place a premium on speed. I like a more compact and balanced dog. I think dogs that are disproportionately long or have crooked legs are more prone to injury and more easily fatigued, but that's just my experience, and some of the people here have a few decades worth more than I do!

I'm also curious what other people think, or if people disregard conformation entirely and go solely on pedigree.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:47 pm

If you disregard conformation entirely, you might as well not even breed beagles. It is one thing to overemphasize conformation to the point that you do not focus on working ability, but I personally do not think a breeder who completely disregards conformation all together is doing much good for the breed.
I don't care about some faults, a little too leggy, little too squat, but I've seen some pathetic looking beagles, so dwarfed in the front there is no way they could withstand long hours of strenuous exercize, and if they do sustain heavy exercize, they are no doubt in pain. Same goes for crooked legs. If its very slight, and you breed to a stud or bitch with better legs, its not much of a problem. If its a severe crooked leg I do not believe that dog should be bred.

roygu · Post by **roygu** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:58 pm

There is no doubt that conformation is one key to endurance. It makes sense that if something is put together properly then it can function more efficiently. However, the conformation exhibited in AKC dog shows is and idea developed by people mostly interested in beauty, as they see it.
I would be interested in seeing five Show Champions, picked at random, matched against five Hare bred hounds, selected at random, in an endurance test.
I have owned several beagles from a popular line of show hounds. None of them had the endurance of my typical southern bred rabbit hounds. One bitch only lacked a fraction of a point making AKC Champion. This particular hound was one of the best jump dogs I have ever seen. She had tons of desire and would run about anthing that had fur. However after about two hours she was exhausted. She was a 15" hound and according to the person who previously owned her, she one of the best movers they had owned.

wingpatch · Post by **wingpatch** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:28 pm

Sorry , I reread the post.
First and formost ,I tuely believe if you breed for ability. The right build to shute it will be there. I personly don't like the word conformation Just to showey for me. Not that i have anything against showing show beagles .If you look at some real old pictures of hunting beagles they looked the part they played ...Hunting Beagles
Wingpatch

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:05 pm

Roygu you are absolutely correct! Most show champion beagles do not have the endurance. I do not believe they do not have the desire, but they are form over function. And some field breeders are doing the exact opposite, function over form. THere needs to be a happy medium. I know many breeders who have show/field line dogs that could run a rabbit to death and earn a show CH too! Thats why I previuisly saud moderation is key with this breed. We can't pay too much attention on conformation, but we NEED to pay some mind to it. The standard just describes the ideal beagle, our job it to find something that resembles the standard without taking it overboard.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:16 pm

Most Beagles that meet show dog standards in the non hunting strains, have bad conformation. It produces a hobby horse gait of up and down rocking motion as opposed to a straight ahead motion, thus causing fatique and muscle skelatal strain. Have you noticed that top human athletes tend to have certain conformation. In a horse it is very important not only for soundness, but effeicency of gait or motion. A rear leg that goes too high off the ground at speed is wasting motion and energy. So too a leg that goes too low in front(daisy cutters) is not reaching its maximum power. The angle of the pastern plays a role in soundness and it is well known that a flat cannon bone is stronger than a round cannon bone which is the same principle as an I-Beam. The Beagle breed has too many sheeped neck(low short shoulders) dogs and crooked legs. Low whithers produce a shortened gate or stride. This does affect endurance. Horses and dogs with big motors need strong and functional running gear. It also must be all be in balance. Sometimes the differance between winning and losing can be one move. One thing I have noticed about dog conformation and looks is that if a breeder has previously had another breed of dog etc., when he breeds his newly aquired breed, he will tend to breed traits more like the breed he used to have. That is why my dogs tend to have a more coonhound head on them and I like long legs, race horse looking bodies and conformation with high shoulders. I read this in a book once and started paying attention to it over the years and found it to be true in a lot of cases.

Little Dog · Post by **Little Dog** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:27 pm

Okay, now I am learning something--thanks to each of you. So does the actual hunting beagles have a different confirmation standards set by the AKC or other organizations versus the show dogs I see on TV?????? I guess those dogs are pretty, but in who's opinion.

I have my own confirmations standards that I look for -- I like em thin and not too big. I figure they can get in tight spots better. Other than that I have never gotten into all that you folks understand but I've let others do the breeding so far.

Bob -- I got one of them big coondog headed dogs (against my conformation standards) and I swear you cannot tell his bawl from the loudest coonhound you ever heard. Everytime I take him out I marvel at the sound that can come out of that big headed dogs mouth. Anyway, do a lot of those bigger headed dogs sound like that?

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:44 pm

I think in certain cases, there is a correlation between head size and mouth. My dogs don't have a large head so to speak, but I liema dog with a hound look so maybe a little longer ear and deeper muzzle attached to a leggier type dog with a long sloping shoulder and more angle than the show dog. Show stock is cobby and short choppy gaited compared to the dogs I like. If the shoulder and elbow have more angle, it makes the stride longer and more effecient, but there is a point where a stride can be too long and too much angle at the pasterns etc which also produces fatigue. There is a balance. When you see a dog run and his back stays level with little waisted motion and he is striding out with a nice round but reaching motion to his front feet, you are on the right track. In a human, a long thigh bone usually helps produce speed and this compares to the stifle on a dog or horse. The lower the stifle joint the better because as it swings, it covers more distance and takes fewer strides to cover the same distance as high stifle joint or short thigh bone. The length and angle of the shoulder blade bone is also involved in the same manner. In a horse, it is usually faster with a long shoulder that has some slope to it but there is a point that if too long, the horse can't carry the speed as far because it too much leverage and causes muscle fatique. Watch the 100 yard dash from a head on view and you will see the faster runners usually have a long thigh bone and there is less wasted motiom in their gates. If you will watch a horse as it runs, sometimes you can see why the horse is not as fast as others by looking at the way their legs move in regard to angles and wasted motion etc. Most top trainers are experts at this and can look at a horse and tell if he is fast and can carry its speed for distance. The first thing that will turn them away from a colt is low shoulders, crooked legs and bad angles.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:49 pm

Girth size is also an important factor. A horse or dog can have all the correct confirmation, but if he doesn't have ample lung and heart room inside, he won't be a top athlete. This has been proven over and over in horses as a general rule. There are exceptions to this rule, but most top trainers measure a girth on a colt when looking to buy.

BUNNYBUSTER · Post by **BUNNYBUSTER** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:16 pm

LITTLE DOG....... YOU GOT THE ANSWER ON THE BOTTOM OF YOUR
POST. " THE BEST DOG IS THE ONE THAT SUITS YOU BEST " GET A DOG ABLE TO DO WHAT YOU REQUIRE. IF HE SUITS YOU & YOU FEED HIM , HE SHOULD TICKLE EVERYONE ELSE TO DEATH.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:29 am

Bunnybuster is right. Bad conformation won't keep your dog from running rabbit and ability is always more important than looks in a beagle.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:30 am

I know this is a flaw in show conformation. I have a dog with one testicle. I was told this is a heredity trait and wonder if this dog should or should not be bred due to his fault. It doesn't affect running ability and was wondering if you had a good male with only one testicle, would you stud him, on not want to pass on the gene?