GETTING BETWEEN A DEER & A DOG CAN GET TRICKY. MAKE 100% SURE THEY SRE RUNNING DEER, THEN MAKE THEM DO A BACK FLIP.
I AM TOO FAT TO CHASE DOGS. BUY THAT COLLAR
Breaking from running deer
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
Guest: If it's so rugged or thick where you run that a beagler can't get in front of his hounds how do you know for sure they are running deer when you shock them? I think one of the fundamentals of collar use is to be sure they are on the deer in the first place before you shock them. Now there are tangles here abouts that are too thick for a man to get through lest he crawls and in those places you got to wait for the deer to come out before you can take any action even if your useing a collar because you have no way of knowing for sure they're on a deer till you see it.
Caught a rabbit out of territory once that I was sure was a deer chase till I caught up to them and saw the rabbit they were running. That rabbit went straight line for near a mile before getting to his home territory. Another time a hound was running so hot I was sure it could not be a rabbit and I was right; five rabbit came down the trail in front of him single file. I can't tell you how many times I've seen deer coming through a spot with the hounds running behind them and the rabbit the hounds were running was behind the deer on the same game trail. Once the deer are seen it's no guarantee that the hounds are running them until you see if there's a rabbit behind the deer.
So just how are you so all fired certain the hounds are running deer when you can't get in front of them? If your not certain, that is, getting in front of them or at a vantage point in open territory where you can see the deer followed by the hounds what are you doing shocking them?
Caught a rabbit out of territory once that I was sure was a deer chase till I caught up to them and saw the rabbit they were running. That rabbit went straight line for near a mile before getting to his home territory. Another time a hound was running so hot I was sure it could not be a rabbit and I was right; five rabbit came down the trail in front of him single file. I can't tell you how many times I've seen deer coming through a spot with the hounds running behind them and the rabbit the hounds were running was behind the deer on the same game trail. Once the deer are seen it's no guarantee that the hounds are running them until you see if there's a rabbit behind the deer.
So just how are you so all fired certain the hounds are running deer when you can't get in front of them? If your not certain, that is, getting in front of them or at a vantage point in open territory where you can see the deer followed by the hounds what are you doing shocking them?
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Guest
dont know where you are from joe but here in west virginia you wouldnt cut no dogs off from deer in the moutains as the deer leave the country shock collars are the only way to go in breaking beagles off deer i wouldnt want to leave home without my tritronics classic 70 they will work great in getting stubborn dogs to come when ya call them too i have 5 beagles and everyone will come now by just using the beeper button or better called the silent recall just as john sees it jb
Guest: Ah West Virginia. Have fond memories of running down there. The mountain region we ran at there wasn't that different from where I live. Although I mostly run along the river here I do run in the mountains too.
One thing I've noticed with my hounds over the years is if they're out searching and I call them and they don't immediatly respond it's most often because they are silently working some rabbit scent.
One thing I've noticed with my hounds over the years is if they're out searching and I call them and they don't immediatly respond it's most often because they are silently working some rabbit scent.
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Hare Hunter
- Posts: 302
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:10 am
- Location: Newberry Michigan
Joe I know and respect your methods for training dogs, I think if you reread some or most of the posts the advice givers said to be sure your dogs were running a deer, no matter what method you use you must be sure it is off game, wouldn't your dog be just as confused if you thought it was running a deer, caught it and shook the heck out of it and told him NO? I have used about every way imaginable to break off game running over 40 years of beagling, I am a firm brliever in the e-collars when used right, I guess I'm saying any method can be used wrong and any method can be abused. Hare
Earl Holbrook
I can see the advantages and disadvantages to both shock collar and running them down (cutting them off). We had a hound in a trial situation - open country, not an enclosure. Can't wear shock collars at a trial. Our hound struck a deer line (even though she'd been shocked on them as a young hound), Ralph knew she was on deer. He'd seen 6 deer move out over a hill and she hit that track as soon as she was unleashed. Two others dogs were with her - all just a hammerin'. Ralph made a bee-line right to the marked deer line he'd seen and just waited. Pretty soon, here they come, so intent on what they were doing that they failed to notice Ralph straddling that line. At the last second our hound looked up and saw him, put the brakes on but slid right between his feet. He commenced to whuppin'. The judged pulled up behind shortly thereafter and asked what was going on. Ralph told him to scratch his dog for running off-game. When he said "Hell, I had her for jump, strike and three checks!" Ralph said, "If my dog can't run a deer any better than that she ain't worth a flip." Anyway, he broke her heart, there was no doubt in her mind that she'd willfully done a bad thing and her owner didn't want her doing it. He put her in the truck and didn't even speak to her the rest of the weekend. That was three years ago and she's never offered to run one again. (knocking wood here)
On the flip side, most folks in most places don't get such a sweet opportunity when their dog hits a deer. We too, are old and fat and have bad knees and run fast dogs. That's a set-up for failure if you don't have a collar on, and a sure-fire way of letting them get a good deer chase under their belts. I will say this, I would advocate the use of the shock collar by letting them KNOW you are the one pressing the button. Many folks feel like the dog should think the deer scent or deer itself caused the bad experience of a shock. I'll tell you why I don't think that's a valid thought and can confuse the hound:
1. Dogs aren't as stupid as we give them credit for. He knows the shock is coming from the collar - he can feel it. And he also knows you put the collar on him. Whenever we acquire a grown hound from someone we don't know that well, I'll put an e-collar on them in the back yard. No button - just put it on them. If they act the least bit goofy, or crawl up into my lap, I know he's been shocked before. They can get collar-wise.
2. There will be many times he crosses deer scent while hunting around, or even running a rabbit that you won't even know about, and he won't get shocked when he smells it. You're never going to be Johnny-on-the-Spot with that button every time he smells deer in the woods.
Whether you use collars or not, I think the real lesson is in them knowing YOU don't want them running deer. If you have a collar on him, but have the opportunity to down them on the line, I'd opt for that first. It seems to carry more weight when you can add your disappointed voice to the mix when they're getting their butt whupped. It becomes personal then. If I couldn't down one and had to lay on the button, I'd be yelling "No!!! Down, you $#*@!!!" the whole time.
Some feel like if you train them not to run deer for you, that's no guarantee they won't do it when your back is turned, isn't wearing the collar, or for someone else. This could be true, but I feel like if a hound will do that after a few good sessions, then he's too hard-headed and willful to suit me, he hasn't learned the lesson and probably won't. If he's a pretty decent deer runner, the boys down south that still hunt with them are always looking for a good'un. If you can't out-place him honestly, then there's always Aaron's method...
On the flip side, most folks in most places don't get such a sweet opportunity when their dog hits a deer. We too, are old and fat and have bad knees and run fast dogs. That's a set-up for failure if you don't have a collar on, and a sure-fire way of letting them get a good deer chase under their belts. I will say this, I would advocate the use of the shock collar by letting them KNOW you are the one pressing the button. Many folks feel like the dog should think the deer scent or deer itself caused the bad experience of a shock. I'll tell you why I don't think that's a valid thought and can confuse the hound:
1. Dogs aren't as stupid as we give them credit for. He knows the shock is coming from the collar - he can feel it. And he also knows you put the collar on him. Whenever we acquire a grown hound from someone we don't know that well, I'll put an e-collar on them in the back yard. No button - just put it on them. If they act the least bit goofy, or crawl up into my lap, I know he's been shocked before. They can get collar-wise.
2. There will be many times he crosses deer scent while hunting around, or even running a rabbit that you won't even know about, and he won't get shocked when he smells it. You're never going to be Johnny-on-the-Spot with that button every time he smells deer in the woods.
Whether you use collars or not, I think the real lesson is in them knowing YOU don't want them running deer. If you have a collar on him, but have the opportunity to down them on the line, I'd opt for that first. It seems to carry more weight when you can add your disappointed voice to the mix when they're getting their butt whupped. It becomes personal then. If I couldn't down one and had to lay on the button, I'd be yelling "No!!! Down, you $#*@!!!" the whole time.
Some feel like if you train them not to run deer for you, that's no guarantee they won't do it when your back is turned, isn't wearing the collar, or for someone else. This could be true, but I feel like if a hound will do that after a few good sessions, then he's too hard-headed and willful to suit me, he hasn't learned the lesson and probably won't. If he's a pretty decent deer runner, the boys down south that still hunt with them are always looking for a good'un. If you can't out-place him honestly, then there's always Aaron's method...
Simple and Easy==Buy your self an elk-never saw an elk that would not stomp any canine and they smell like a deer,you only need one in a pen and that way you can beat the elk off the beagle,any more and you don't want to interfer with the elk killing the canine,i have a herd,so i seldom put a beagle in the pasture with the heard cause i can't defend myself from a heard after a canine.Elk are reaonable now days and i have a few to sell,mine are white cows but i have some reg color calves.
REBEL
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MasonsBeagles
Commend Bev
Bev,
Your response was a good one. I look forward to meeting you and your husband someday at the trials. Telling a judge that your dog was on a deer chase is almost unheard of. That is the type of integrity the Trials definately need. I see it too often people wanting to win at all costs. That note lets people know the kind of people you and your husband are.
Your response was a good one. I look forward to meeting you and your husband someday at the trials. Telling a judge that your dog was on a deer chase is almost unheard of. That is the type of integrity the Trials definately need. I see it too often people wanting to win at all costs. That note lets people know the kind of people you and your husband are.
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Guest
Harehunter: I did read the posts and I've no doubt that all that ALL are advocateing only shocking them when they're sure the hound is on deer. But that brings up my question about how they are sure. If the hounds can't be cut off to check and know for sure because it's too thick or rugged and if as many are saying it's more important to get the shock to them quickly then how are they sure the hound is on deer without checking first? It's a fair question I think and while it might not get folks to stop useing a shock collar it just might prevent them from shocking a hound who isn't running deer.
I've never subscribed to the beleif that you have to get to them as quick as they start the chase. Yes it is prefered but not essential. The most important thing is that you get the point across to them that running deer is a no no. Then it's up to their gifts what will happen next. If they're highly tractable they'll leave the deer alone once they learn they are off limits and you don;t want them to run deer. if they aren't tractable enough to stop running deer then they'll continue to run them.
Reread Bev's post. She's found out on her own much of what I've been saying here for a long time. Next she'll learn through her experiance the rest of the equation. She's well on her way, she can read a collar wise hound.
I've never subscribed to the beleif that you have to get to them as quick as they start the chase. Yes it is prefered but not essential. The most important thing is that you get the point across to them that running deer is a no no. Then it's up to their gifts what will happen next. If they're highly tractable they'll leave the deer alone once they learn they are off limits and you don;t want them to run deer. if they aren't tractable enough to stop running deer then they'll continue to run them.
Reread Bev's post. She's found out on her own much of what I've been saying here for a long time. Next she'll learn through her experiance the rest of the equation. She's well on her way, she can read a collar wise hound.
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Phillip Smith
First off anyone can tell a collar wise dog if they've had hounds for a while. Second off if you know your dogs you should be able to tell by their voice when their on off game. I had one deer race last season and we had a new dog along and I knew within two minutes (even before my Lemon wasn't barking) that it was a deer. I try and break my dogs before they ever get in a deer race. We were going to run the other morning and saw a deer cross the road. We marked the spot and pulled past where it crossed. I had two young dogs and one 3 year old. The young dogs opened up and my female got the heck out of dodge. When she smelled the deer and the other dogs started barking she came running. She had been shocked on one deer months age. Some dogs can run a deer for a while and still be broke, some can't. I've got some friends that have been in beagling for years, they don't beleive in shock collars (or didn't) they are constanly looking for thier beagles. They have always said shock collars will ruin more dogs then they will train. They're amazed at the way our dogs handle and don't run deer. They have changed their mind about shock collars. Joe I'm sure your way will work on some dogs just like my way will work on some but neither will work on all dogs.
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Guest
I agaree with Joe 100%. I run hare and the last couple times out I had to drive over 1/2 mile to track my hound down. I could of said, he must have been on a deer and shocked him but like Joe says, I DIDN"T KNOW he was chasing a deer. When I caught up to him, he was on a hare. Where I am from if the hare get pressured, they will hit the big open timber and run for ever and it would be easily confused as deer running. A shocking collar would be good if you had the assurance that it in fact was off game. I liked the idea of taking the hounds to where a deer was seen and then scolding them when you are 100% sure they are opening on the deer scent. Shocking with out proof is like shooting your best friend because you thought he slept with your wife.
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snowshoehareguide
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:52 pm
- Location: brownington vermont
if anybody can break a dog off deer without a shocking collar. . they sure can do it with one... ive used and misused shocking collars for twenty five years. i can also remember the stuff i did before the shocking collar. for instance ralph catching that dog and giving it a whipping... id have done the same. it worked on that dog. it could have made it shy. could have made it mean.. he could have accidently done serious harm to that dog . he could have not got the message across.. lots of things could have happened... same as with the collar.. its not perfect but its the best ive got. i have a friend slapped a dog running deer with his open hand . killed it... ... if i catch my dog running deer hell get a whipping.. hell also get another chance to run one wearing a shock collar... he might even wear a shock collar a long time after i think there is any chance hell run one.. i think the people who are against the shock collar the most would do the best with it... i think its way better than whipping them.. its just a tool... the newer models with no external antenna and smaller size and adjustible stimulation are so much better than the old models... i think they make it very easy to teach a dog all kinds of things... anything you can do without a shocking collar you can do better with one. good and bad.. have to think before you push the button.. ... wingpatch . i know what your method is and i could still use a shock collar with that method... got venison pete
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Right on pete it works but it is kinda messey, I never seen a dog that needed it twice. And i am with you ,the collar it would really get the point across. I personly dont believe in useing a collar unless it is a set up deal. I have seen dogs ruined......Wingpatch