"Good Breeders"

[Windkist]

[quote="sav"]Leah, no degrading tone intended, it's printed word there can't be tones.

I'm quite sure there are many show hounds that are healthy and can run, it just isn't a prerequisite is it? I just watched Westminster and I don't recall any testing of the hounds hunting abilities, or stamina does this happen off camera?

You can't be disagreeing with the fact that Dog Shows are only about conforming to a physical standard? Or am I unaware that they test for hunt and tractability, herding, retrieving?

On your site you say "The basis for our breeding program is a simple one. Breed to the Standard and for good health and mental soundness." Which Standard? I support your right to do what you like with your hounds or anything for that matter, my point is on average show hounds/breeders do not concern themselves with hunting traits and therefore are weakening the breed from a hunting/working standpoint.quote]

Yes, it is a prerequisite for our hounds to be able to run and be agile and athletic. It is at my kennel and at everyone invovled in show beagles I know. Perhaps you invision them all lying around on fluffy pillows eating bon bons? Our dogs run and are able to work all day long if necessary.

Dog shows do focus on the conformation of the dog.. you might take a hint at that since its a "conformation" show. That doesn't mean we throw out all other aspects of the beagles qualities.

If you need to read the standard for the beagle breed you are welcome to visit http://www.akc.org You'll find it there.

I have been more than generous with my hounds to those who are interested in hunting and have several that are now starting training that are closely related to my personal dogs.

You are certainly entitled to your narrow minded opinions...

Leah

[sav]

Leah wrote "Dog shows do focus on the conformation of the dog.. you might take a hint at that since its a "conformation" show. That doesn't mean we throw out all other aspects of the beagles qualities."

What do you do with all other aspects then? They aren't judged on these other aspects are they?

No I don't invision anything of the sort, my Wife is a long time "Show" person so I do know what it entails. If you would like to continue to belittle me for my opinion that's fine, but can we agree that Conformation Shows concentrate soley on Conformation? Therefore contribute nothing to any given breed, other than striving for better conformation?

TC my original post dealt with the differences between show and working dogs of similar breed, not hy-brid if you will. What do you consider more important Hunt/Desire or Conformation?

I would just like to add that this kind of attack on someone because of their opinion, right or wrong is the cancer of these boards. You two are so much better than me and your opinions are beyond reproach? I'm narrow minded and your not?

[Windkist]

I would just like to add that this kind of attack on someone because of their opinion, right or wrong is the cancer of these boards. You two are so much better than me and your opinions are beyond reproach? I'm narrow minded and your not?


I am not Narrow minded as I have never belittled hunting dogs or their owners for the hobby they love. Thats the big difference.

You are not being attacked as you started the attack in the first place. The cancer to our breed is the lack of open communication and the lack of tolerance for each other. The "I'm better than you" attitude. I truely wish I lived somewhere that I could attend field events or just go out for a lovely morning of running some dogs. I have looked for beagle gundog clubs here and there are none. Not only that but, for the most part time does not allow for more than one hobby as I am too raising a family and that comes first.

As for conformation shows. Yes we are judging comformation which includes soundness, running gear, athletisicm. Those attributes go hand in hand with running rabbits.

I'm definately loving the reports about the puppies sired by my "foo foo" show dog who are now in the starting pens.

Leah

[Greg H]

Before insults start flying around maybe I can help. I think what Sav is saying is that if you are breeding you hounds to someday win best of show you are putting certain traits above all others. Such as confirmation, personallity, spirit and all of the other traits that go into a top show hound. Not saying that you don't breed for stamina and hunt and desire but these traits are not first on your list. For instance, if you have a litter of pups and you decide to keep the best female, which one are you going to keep? The beautiful, perfect one or the funny looking one that can run the hair off of a rabbit. Hunting breeders (there are exceptions) will breed for the traits that enhance hunting ability and the show dog looks are not first on their list. NOTICE I SAID THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS. These exceptions are the true breeders of beagles IMHO. As they are striving to breed hounds that meet the standard, while keeping or improving their hunting capabilty.

[blunder]

I can't see how we can compare show dogs (breeders) to hunting dogs (breeders) as the are two entirely different games. Would it matter if a show hound could even smell, or see further than 10 ft, or had asthma so bad it could only run for 1 minute before passing out, as long as it didn't effect the outward appearance of the dog it can still win shows right?

How can you compare that to a hunting hound? JMHO but I think that show lines of any sporting/hunting breed do far more damage than good. If you show qualities are more important than hunting qualities your hurting the breed and not using it for what is was developed for, Hunting.

Being able to run all day is a function of "conditioning" and has ZILCH to do with breeding, MY CAT CAN RUN ALL DAY!!!!
You bet, genetics are a major factor in hunting dogs, and it is through the culling process that we get good ones. When you lump show breeders all in one basket you will be missing the mark every bit as much as when you lump all hunters in one basket.

What makes you think "show breeders" don't hunt??????
I can tell you this,, if you spend more days in the field than this "show breeder", you do not work for a living. so there,,pht-pht

I don't take credit for righting this, but maybe it will clear the air a bit
http://www.shilohshepherds.com/puppyBre ... trixv4.htm

tom

[oakhill]

My definition of a good beagle breeder.

Someone who consistently produces healthy hounds with good conformation, without genetic defects, and that can bring a rabbit around to the gun in the most efficient way.

What the heck does trialing have to do with that??? A good breeder can be a trialer, rabbit hunter, or show breeder as long as they accomplish the above. Ribbon and trophies don't mean crap to getting the job done.

The resources they may use to complete the goal to being a good breeder may be trials, fellow beaglers, internet forums, dog shows and lots and lots of hard work in the field.

I have been to some trials and had a great time. Saw alot of good hounds but alot did not have the hunt that I desire in a dog. So for me breeding for hunt is on the list also.

I am sure I have left some things out but am in a rush. You guys can point em out to me, lol

[Wilkerson Boys]

LOL - I recently got my daughter a chee-weenie?????? She's a pretty fine little dog. All of us have our rights to breed for what we want and nobody hurts nobody if we are all in our own game. Wayne

[sav]

Thanks Greg for being open minded enough to hear what I had to say.

Leah I never belittled anyone to my knowledge, I invite you to prove otherwise. I also never attacked anyone either, but prove me wrong if possible.

Leah with all due respect, one look at your website would lead me to believe you aren't too concerned with Hunting Traits in your hounds, that's my opinion. If you are more concerned with hunting traits, why are you involved in showing? Seems contradictory to me? Next you're going to tell me that it is beneficial for a Retriever to take part in Schutzund trials?


So we would all be OK leaving the future of HUNTING/WORKING hounds in the hands of the Show/Conformation community, that makes no sense to me at all.

[blunder]

Sorry sav but you are not hearing what people are saying.
It's ironic that you would visit Leah's site and then say "one look at your website would lead me to believe you aren't too concerned with Hunting Traits in your hounds" because all this means is that you have not done very much research. Otherwise you would have known that the huge winner at Leah's place (Parker) is out of a bitch that came from a litter of hunting fools. I can tell you that without reservation because I have her sister.

tom

[sav]

Sorry Tom but you're also not hearing what I am saying. I never said they didn't have any I said she wasn't concerned with it, or at least did not foster it to the same extent a hunter or trialer would. Apparently you never heard what Greg said either, let's all listen a little better.

Let's ask the people; take a look at Leah's site, which is very well done by the way, and tell us if you think that her conformationally superior hounds are used more for hunting or Showing? Open your eyes Tom.

Show if you want, trial if you want, hunt if you want I don't care what you do with your dogs you can eat them for all I care. Just don't tell me that the Show community in general has the good of the "HUNTING HOUND" at heart, that's pure BS and you all know it.

I run my dogs in the wild on wild rabbits every day I can, and if I had to choose between that and stacking practice, or bathing and grooming day I'd chose running and gunning everytime and that's the difference between me and you as well as the differences between our hounds I'll bet. But let me guess I'm wrong on that front as well

[Wilkerson Boys]

We all have one thing in common. "A dog is man's best friend." AND "It seems it may be a "Woman's best friend too." It seems that none of the above are "Anti's" so it probably is in our best interest to respect each others breedings for what we like. I would think a person in show dogs as much as the above could carry a good bit of weight for both us, the gundog folks and them, the show dog folks. Some do both. I would go as far to say there are probably many more better bred beagles for both hunt and show today than ever. Got to get back to our new chee-weenie????? Hope all you folks have a wonderful day and I won't be bothering any of you FELLOW BEAGLERS again on this topic.
Wayne

[Windkist]

Thanks Greg for being open minded enough to hear what I had to say.

Leah I never belittled anyone to my knowledge, I invite you to prove otherwise. I also never attacked anyone either, but prove me wrong if possible.

Leah with all due respect, one look at your website would lead me to believe you aren't too concerned with Hunting Traits in your hounds, that's my opinion. If you are more concerned with hunting traits, why are you involved in showing? Seems contradictory to me? Next you're going to tell me that it is beneficial for a Retriever to take part in Schutzund trials?


So we would all be OK leaving the future of HUNTING/WORKING hounds in the hands of the Show/Conformation community, that makes no sense to me at all.

I did not say on my site or anywhere else that I'm not concerned with good hunting traits in my dogs. Do I hunt them? No and I explained that in a previous post. My problem with your attitude is your "superior" to everyone attitude. No tolerance for anything but, your way and your way alone.

As I said before my dogs are being used by the hunting folks and doing well. If I had no interest in such things would I be letting them use my dogs? I think not. You don't know what I am about so, lets not pretend you do.

Nobody here either suggested that the show community take over the hunting community. We can however co-exist and help each other and support each other with out being told we are useless to the breed.

Leah

[TC]

TC my original post dealt with the differences between show and working dogs of similar breed, not hy-brid if you will. What do you consider more important Hunt/Desire or Conformation?

I understand Where you are comming From Sav, I see both Sides of this issue Every Day And have been Dealing with it for years.
The Problem is THERE IS A DIVISION When there should not be. A lot of it I feel stems from the attitudes that Show dogs Caint Hunt!!!!!
Or a Field Dog caint Show!!! WHY NOT?????
If more beagle owners or breeders Would get thier dogs out there maybe the judges would have something elkse to base thier opinions On!
Are they not the SAME Breed?
As far as Breeding the hunt out of them Well I havnt seen it GIVEN the opportunity Most will!
What i mean by this is you take a Show line and give it the same training you do a Gundog and you can get a Good hunting Dog! Will it meet the standards? Depends Like has been said before ones mans Junk is another mans treasure.

now as to your Question

What do you consider more important Hunt/Desire or Conformation?

BOTH Without one the other dont mean a thing...... MY OPINION!!!!!


NOW back to the original Topic
I ask Keystone again By What standard statistics or level of measure are you grading a breeder by to get your Numbers?????

[Windkist]

We all have one thing in common. "A dog is man's best friend." AND "It seems it may be a "Woman's best friend too." It seems that none of the above are "Anti's" so it probably is in our best interest to respect each others breedings for what we like. I would think a person in show dogs as much as the above could carry a good bit of weight for both us, the gundog folks and them, the show dog folks. Some do both. I would go as far to say there are probably many more better bred beagles for both hunt and show today than ever. Got to get back to our new chee-weenie????? Hope all you folks have a wonderful day and I won't be bothering any of you FELLOW BEAGLERS again on this topic.
Wayne

Thank you Wayne. Respect among breeders is important. I think for the most part our breed is in a good place and getting better.

Leah

[blunder]

or at least did not foster it to the same extent a hunter or trialer would.

I would doubt very much that she fosters hunting as much as someone that hunts,,,, Daah!!!!
Simple question,,, does your wife foster hunting as much as you do?????
Or does she just as soon you stayed home and painted the fence!!!!

Let's ask the people; take a look at Leah's site, which is very well done by the way, and tell us if you think that her conformationally superior hounds are used more for hunting or Showing

Now there is a silly one,,,, of course her dogs are used for showing, that is what she does. Oh I forgot to mention,,, I don't need to look at her web site, I can walk over to her home.

I run my dogs in the wild on wild rabbits every day I can,

I don't, believe it or not, I do have a life. Even been known to go duck hunting instead of rabbit hunting (different kind of dog to train up for that)

Yup, Meg & Blunder down there at the bottom of my signature, they aint Beagles

Now I guess I realy am a bad Beagle breeder, I even like different breeds.

tom