"Good Breeders"

Plowboy · Post by **Plowboy** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:52 pm

The top breeder is someone you or I have never heard of, who hasn't sold a pup or even been to a trial. He has farm bred & raised an ole line of beagles with no paperwork or profiles, just his knowledge of how they used to be & what they need to get better. Probably killed more rabbits than we have ever seen. Would give extra pups to kids around town to get them hunting too. Has permission to hunt any land in his county because everybody knows & trusts him. That is my opinion.
Anytime you think you are on top, you just haven't cut them loose with the right person.

Plowboy

josh · Post by **josh** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:08 pm

well said plowboy

houndsound · Post by **houndsound** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:15 pm

I've said it before and will say it again,.... I think we make way to much of a science out of running a rabbit.

A rabbit dogs job is to search for, jump and run a rabbit in a circle, or a few circles.

I've seen way to many dogs do a good, even excellent job at accomplishing that definition.

What I've never seen is a single dog that needs to have a big S on it's chest. No matter the breeding, no matter the titles... they all basiclly do the same thing, jump rabbits and through the use of their nose and eyes, run them in circles.

My dogs are fair at best, I'll be the first to admit that. Funny thing is they always seem to hang with anything they run with.

I know I'll get a million "you haven't run with enough dogs.... etc.." but to me as long as they jump rabbits, make circles out of the rabbits and come to me when I want to come home............ what really are you going to improve upon with any breeding?

I think the answer is that you really can't improve much on that.... thats what they're bred to do. I think the problem is that someone is always wanting to be the best. And most just want to listen to the dogs chase a bunny.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:32 pm

Ahhhh...more heart and less lecture.....that's what I'm talking about! Now lets go run rabbits!

MYH

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:53 pm

anyone who spends 265,000 dollars (did i read that right) on a beagle or any other hound...has far more dollars than.....um.."sense". (Pun intended... )

Couldn't agree more, but it did happen.

Seller is a nice lady, buyer,,,,,,, well what can I say

Even tho' they are not Beagles, do a search on Candlewood. Interesting lady, and she probably does know more about dogs than the rest of us combined.
And you will not believe the number of dogs that will come up with that search

tom

TheBman · Post by **TheBman** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:16 pm

Plowboy...I think you said a mouth full in that paragraph. I know 2 men like that and am proud to know them. They have taught me alot through the years. I aint even wearing diapers yet when it comes to being a good breeder, but I try to learn from those that are.

who are some of the other people that I should keep in mind when it comes to breeding programs and their work.

Brent

DarrinG · Post by **DarrinG** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:47 am

......and being a member of puggles unlimited, running dogs since 1884, field trialing since before the sun came up, being the only person alive who knows how to tell a good dog, yada, yada, yada....makes a good breeder? Sheesh.

Throw a little pinch of humble and meekness in there with the knowledge and you get closer to being a good representative of the sport.

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:00 am

If someone thinks you need to "trial" to be a good breeder then you have serious issues.

I think it was those that "trial" that nearly ruined beagles 60 years ago. I think it's those that "trial" this is continually breeding the hunt out of dogs. I think it's those that "trial" that is continually breeding for speed,speed, speed and not keeping dogs under control. I think it's those that "trial" that are the puppy mills that use that one "stud" dog and breed to every registered bitch they can run through their kennels.

Those that don't "trial" breed to own the very best gundogs possible. They don't ribbon chase dogs to breed to and they keep it simple. THey don't breed the hunt out of dogs as much as the trialers have. The only thing that non-trialers may lack is confirmation in their dogs and most have just as good as the average trialer.

The best line of dogs I've ran with are bred to kill rabbits. They do trial from time to time but they don't breed a dog to "fit" a style or judge. Two of the three best individual hounds I ever gunned over never saw a trial and they produced many, many fine offsprings. Two decendants, including one son is at my house.

Just look at the two best known lines out there today.

One is a known puppy mill and the other has 0 hunt. Only because of a trophy or two can they breed and everyone goes running and breeds any female that they have that is in heat.

On average, more trialers think a great studdog can override their heavily faulted bitches. Don't believe me? Just look around these boards and you'll find it day after day.

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:30 am

Swamper , Although i agree with you as far as hunt is concerned I dont think its fair to us that trial gundogs , proven gundogs that have paid for there food.Trailing is a way to judge my best with a complete strangers best . Ribbons and trophies are pretty cool

, nothing more than bragging rights . I like to compete , dont you? Whether its killing rabbits
chasing trophies or playing golf etc . As you know speed seems to be the flavor among trialers thats dum . People breed to whatever is winning look at turbo fans . Why have they bought and bred to ever dog that has a really cool name .

Nothing at all with turbo blood but thats what i have noticed . So i suppose what i am trying to say is dont bunch us up . There are some fine dogs in ever registry . Me personally i like akc and lp . Dogs in both are overall pretty quality hounds . I have always thought though ever dog should be shot over before its cast , i have always thought there are lots of gun shy hounds we aint seen . Gundogs will always prevail

sav · Post by **sav** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:45 am

I can't see how we can compare show dogs (breeders) to hunting dogs (breeders) as the are two entirely different games. Would it matter if a show hound could even smell, or see further than 10 ft, or had asthma so bad it could only run for 1 minute before passing out, as long as it didn't effect the outward appearance of the dog it can still win shows right?

How can you compare that to a hunting hound? JMHO but I think that show lines of any sporting/hunting breed do far more damage than good. If you show qualities are more important than hunting qualities your hurting the breed and not using it for what is was developed for, Hunting.

Wilkerson Boys · Post by **Wilkerson Boys** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:57 am

I sure have seen alot of nice bred beagles. (and yes some that were not)

Wayne

Windkist · Post by **Windkist** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:02 pm

sav wrote:I can't see how we can compare show dogs (breeders) to hunting dogs (breeders) as the are two entirely different games. Would it matter if a show hound could even smell, or see further than 10 ft, or had asthma so bad it could only run for 1 minute before passing out, as long as it didn't effect the outward appearance of the dog it can still win shows right?

How can you compare that to a hunting hound? JMHO but I think that show lines of any sporting/hunting breed do far more damage than good. If you show qualities are more important than hunting qualities your hurting the breed and not using it for what is was developed for, Hunting.

You are quite wrong with your analogy and this attitude is part of the reason there is such a split in our hounds. I assure you that show beagles are very healthy and very much able to endure running all day. What we choose to do with our hounds is a personal decision but, I resent the degrading tone taken towards our show dogs though they can't somehow do anything but, trot around the ring.

Leah Bertagnolli
Windkist Beagles

sav · Post by **sav** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:14 pm

Leah, no degrading tone intended, it's printed word there can't be tones.

I'm quite sure there are many show hounds that are healthy and can run, it just isn't a prerequisite is it? I just watched Westminster and I don't recall any testing of the hounds hunting abilities, or stamina does this happen off camera?

You can't be disagreeing with the fact that Dog Shows are only about conforming to a physical standard? Or am I unaware that they test for hunt and tractability, herding, retrieving?

On your site you say "The basis for our breeding program is a simple one. Breed to the Standard and for good health and mental soundness." Which Standard? I support your right to do what you like with your hounds or anything for that matter, my point is on average show hounds/breeders do not concern themselves with hunting traits and therefore are weakening the breed from a hunting/working standpoint.

"Exercise is needed on a leash as he has a tendency to roam. A large back yard will take care of most of his exercise requirements"

"An inside dog who requires lots of outside activity, house should have a fenced yard"

Your own words prove my point, how many generations of this would it take to breed the hunt out of your line?

Once again this is just my opinion, I think I'm still entitled to one.

beerdrinking bob · Post by **beerdrinking bob** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:15 pm

beagles were bred to do one thing RUN THE FUR OFF A BUNNY. who cares if you fun run with your buddys gun hunt for food or sport or trial to prove how good your hound is. men breed there dogs to try to get the best hound they can with there own stock. sure i might take my female to someone elses male because he has something my males may lack,but the pups are still out of my stock and im trying to better it. not every cross will throw good pups no matter how good the pair are. sometimes you have 1 out of 8 that makes a good hound.sometimes they all are good this is just a chance you take when you breed. i dont think any true beagler will ever breed just to make money. sure they make money but most keep a pup or two for theirself trying to better thier stock.

TC · Post by TC » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:51 pm

SAV wrote: I think that show lines of any sporting/hunting breed do far more damage than good. If you show qualities are more important than hunting qualities your hurting the breed and not using it for what is was developed for, Hunting.

Originally this post was about "95% of breeders are bad breeders"

I my self take offence to this statement, there is many mistakes made on both sides of the fence of field and show.... Neither contributes to the original assinign post.

But this comment is just as bad but since you opened this can of worms. There is a lot of show folks that do trial their dogs. Or Trial folks that show their dogs. Are they as well ruining the breed standard? To the best of my recollection it is the same standard, and maybe if part of AKC's requirements were of stamina, huntability were a part of the conformation maybe those dogs would display their abilities, but since it is not you cannot hold the Show Conformation folks responcible for the loss of assumed huntability now can we. I have found that many of the show hounds use their nose the same, it is just that they do not have the opportunity to work in the field. On the other hand though there is bench shows at some field trials and I have seen some real disasters become BCH. How does that happen when the standard states the exact same thing?

I think that it is entirely presuptuous of you to make such a statement, and I agree with Leah, this is exactly why show breeders lack the desire to place a show beagle in hunting homes.

Of course feed what you like and like what you feed but to better the breed you need to look at both sides the fence before you make judgement on others.

Now for the original post:

A bad breeder is a breeder that does not care where the pups he produces turns up, does not ensure he is making a breeding to better the line he has, and just breeds dogs to produce a dog to sell. I don't see many of those people in the trialing/field/hunting or show homes. This was a very insulting post, and I think that most of us on here do not land in the 95% range. Or maybe the original post should have stated that 5% breeders are bad breeders. Because most of the beaglers on here are working to better their hounds/their line.