Trashproof?

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

blunder that is not true. I understand that you get big and small but you also get average when it comes to size or treeing instinct. You will get all of the above. Also I am not talking about the just the first litter on the size thing. Over time and many generations. I have seen it too many times in horses dogs and other species such as catlle etc. If you are talking about Mendels experiment, he used a species of plant that had height determined by simple recessive or dominat gene and yes, they are inherited either tall or short. In mammals height is more determined by several genes that are not inherited in a simple Mendel fashion. Many traits are caused by the number of genes present for that trait. Shyness would be one of them. A dog is not either shy or not shy but is variouys degrees of shyness depending on how many genes he has for the trait. Treeing is the same way and so is height. Dr Leon Whitney showed that long legs were recessive to short legs which may be true but there are other factors involved. I have watched for this over the years and it never held true in litters except in a general way. Yes if you breed a weenie dog to a lab all the pups will have mostly short legs in the FIRST cross. All would still be carrying the recessive for longer legs and later generations would show the trait but not to the extreme the lab shows it. Most would be a litte shorter over time. It is not inherited in simple menedel fashion such as peas or eye color in humans etc. The amount of treeing instinct is caused by more than one or 2 genes and depends on how many genes the dog got for the trait. Also other traits or genes are involved such as frustration threshold and some others. Hang in there!

Boys sounds as if to me that ol ralph has done his homework, I will also agree with most of his opinions .Hey ralph if i line bred heavily for say 9 generations why are my
pups losing there size? Also why are heavily linebred dogs getting sick so easy ?

[billi]

My friend had a male by T T Trader that never ran a deer. He was our thermometer for years. He crossed him on at least 1 female im aware of that also never ran a deer but ill gurantee ya those pups had to be broke from runnin deer. I still can remember like someone else said the longer you go without findin a rabbit you can bet the higher chances of having a deer chase gets. I have hunted places without finding a rabbit and said to my huntin partner lets get outa here for we run a deer..More deer than rabbits here...

[Ralph Pearson]

bili remeber that the family is also responsible for the inheritance of the pups. Did those deerproof parents have family members that ran deer. Also the parents can carry it hidden and it pops out in the pups. Sexual reproduction is designed to produce variation. That is its job and the breeder has to fight against it by selection and piling on the good traits and culling the bad. It a is a constant battle and mother nature is aginst you in these efforts. Asexual reproductio is designed to breed true or keep the traits constant. Many plants are self fertile and they breed true without much variation. Both have their pluses and minuses. How many human children look exactly like one of the parents? That is sexual reproduction. How many soy bean plants look exactly like the parents. Most of not all and that is asexual reproduction which severley limits variation. The size issue is determined by several factors and in some cases I would not doubt that breeding to the perfect size would get you what you want . Most times it will not and it depends on the stock used and how pure they were for the trait and what mode of inheritance the trait is govorned by. Height is a funny thing. A better experiment would be to cross 2 breeds and tell me what you get. Just doing it in one strain is not a good example because of several factors which would take to long to discuss. You will produce a few perfect sizes but how about the whole family. Did they come out just like the perfect parent you used. I doubt it. ------ JIMMY, sometimes inbreeding causes size loss and vigor loss. If you are going to inbreed start with some size to allow for it. be quick to cull the less vigorous. I think it is caused by problems with the endocrine system and is a common thing in inbred dogs. Have you noticed the SPO dogs having fewer numbers of puppies. Mine always have 7 or 8 and they raise them all. Some strains can't do this because they have inherited problems that were not culled out. You also lose your hybrid vigor which occurs in outcross animals. Mother nature is cruel and punishes us for going against her at times. The ELHEW pointers were inbred and the ones with problems were culled and they seemed to have survived the problem. Most were not so fortunate. Nothing is really written in stone when it comes to sexual reproduction as variation is the norm and it has to be handled right or we lose ground as mother nature is always trying to regress the dog and steal the traits we have selected for. She wants to breed back to the mongrel or wolf as we try to get away from it. She is always greasing the pole and we use inbreeding to try and foiuld her. Sometimes it works wonders but most times it doesn't. Gotta go, I am late for my Polka lesson.

[blunder]

I understand that you get big and small but you also get average when it comes to size or treeing instinct. You will get all of the above. Also I am not talking about the just the first litter on the size thing. Over time and many generations.

remeber that the family is also responsible for the inheritance of the pups. Did those deerproof parents have family members that ran deer. Also the parents can carry it hidden and it pops out in the pups

The size issue is determined by several factors

depends on the stock used and how pure they were for the trait and what mode of inheritance the trait is govorned by.

That is its job and the breeder has to fight against it by selection and piling on the good traits and culling the bad

Kind of makes my point of NOT breeding to those "extreems" and adding even more viariables to your line, doesn't he.

tom

[AlabamaSwamper]

I have seen many lines in the field. I have owned others as well.

Ralph, what do I care if a dog is UKC/AKC/NKC or barn raised?

My offer stands for ANY of them. Go get me some amish dogs and bring them on down. I don't care. They will run deer if they will run rabbits. Just bring them on down here.

For you to say that SPO dogs can't cut it up there, I can only

THere are plenty of SPO dogs in Missouri. Plenty in Canada. Plenty everywhere. Your winters are not that much colder than ours. I've seen plenty of UKC dogs and other hare dogs with squatty bodies as you call them. I've seen just as many taller dogs in SPO.

Quit spinning this argument away from the original point I was making. It gets funny and well......was/is/always will be funny.

My offer stands. Bring me the litter.

IF they are truly "Genetically" trashproof, then you shouldn't have any worries.

I'm not saying it isn't possible but heck, I've been offering this deal for 3 years and I still have no takers. I must assume it's never been done which can only lead me to one conclusion.......it can't be done.




Southern:

I know what you are saying. Didn't mean to make it sound like that. I was just talking about getting the perfect middle from every pup, which doesn't happen all the time, most of the time.

You know how I feel, just as yourself.

Ralph, you are correct, over time and culling, you can breed certain genetics into dogs. No doubt there.

[SouthernBeagles]

Have you noticed the SPO dogs having fewer numbers of puppies. Mine always have 7 or 8 and they raise them all. Some strains can't do this because they have inherited problems that were not culled out.

I have line bred SPO dogs. My average litter size is 7 sometimes 6 sometimes 8 however it isn't uncommon for me to have as many as 11 in a litter. Smallest litter I ever had was 2 pups. One was born dead, the other I still have and aint going nowhere. The litter was from an older bitch that had produced 11 pups last litter and 10 the litter before that so NO I haven't noticed SPO dogs having fewer numbers of puppies. PM me your email and I will send you a copy of some peds if ya want to see.

Alswamper,
LOL No prob. Was just giving you an example that YOU have seen yourself of how you can get dogs in between from one style to another. Thought we might have gotten on different pages there for a min, LOL.

[AlabamaSwamper]

Southern,

I can't believe you breed short stubby legged dogs. Shame on you!

I can't believe all those runs on extremely dry days in August in GA actually happened either. Ralph says SPO dogs have no nose and are to slow so you must be lying!

THis gets by the minute.

[New York Hillbilly]

And the Band plays on! Trashproof lines............ wait until one makes a fool out of you belivers, and it will only take "ONE" to blow the theory. Been there done that many, many years ago! For now enjoy the dream.
NYH

[Ralph Pearson]

One correction. Kawlaga may not go back to Boogie like the others. Swamper if I called you a murderer you may take be offended and take exceprtion to that claim. Are you a murderer. I think all would agree you are NOT! The problem is that most humans under the right circumtances will take another humans life. There are many examples throughout history to show this is true. Any one of us will do it if we had to. If a man threatens the life of your family or children and was about to shoot them and you had it in your power to stop him by shooting him, you or I would do it. We might not think twice about it nor hesitate in any fashion. If our country was attacked by the Chinese and we needed every man and woman to fight them, we would do it. Those are not circumstances we see everyday and we are not thinking about it nor do we dwell upon it for any length of time. Most of our friends have never killed anyone and we don't sit around and talk about it yet each and everyone of us has the potential to be a murderer and killer of our fellow man. Does that make us all murderers?? Me and you, are we killers of our fellow man. Or are we peace loving and do we teach our children to love one another and do we believe in the Bilble verse of Thall shall not kill? Comparing your offer to teach dogs to run deer is the same thing. If a dog is straight while hunting that is all we expect. If a person is NOT a murderer under normal conditions, that is all we expect. Maybe a murderer and a peace loving person are the same thing. Maybe a deer proof dog and a deer runner are the same thing under ABNORMAL CONDITIONS. My dogs are not circus dogs and they are not robots. They are hunting dogs and nothing more. If you take them put of their intended environment there is no telling what they would do. I will tell you this though. Given enough time and dogs, I could breed a dog that you yourself could not make run a deer. They would have to be tested under those conditions to select the stock to do this and to select stock for that job they would have to be tested under those conditions. Not a fair test if you use animals that were tested under other conditions than the one you ask them to perform in. Tests are the foundation of any breeding program and you have to set specific criteria and have boundries and controls to prevent false correlations and false results. Phones ringing!

[SouthernBeagles]

ROFL Alswamper!

[AlabamaSwamper]

I ask you again Ralph.

I am a white man, if I had of been raised by a black family, would my skin have turned black? Nope, even though I was in that enviroment with a black family.

You are what you are, same as your dogs. They are genetically programmed to track a scent. That scent is determined by their training. The only thing you can do is breed that simple genetic out and I doubt you can breed scent trailing ability out of a pure line of beagles, hunted or not for 50 years.

YOu said you could do it. Well, what are you waiting for?

Heck, I'll help ya. Me and Bunnyseeker will do the deer training part at an early age and then you can have them back. Of course, you better get some shock collars because they'll run deer when they return. HMMMMMM? That being said, you couldn't use them for your base stock so try, try, try again.

My offer stands. I'm waiting and my email address is posted in my profile.

[AlabamaSwamper]

ROFL Alswamper!

And I thought we were friends!!!!!!!

[blunder]

I'll still go with "trash restant"
It's about like having a retriever that is "switch proof",,, ya right
Dogs do what dogs do

tom

[Brad B.]

Ralph, I have no doubts that you have hounds that have never ran a deer. I have a couple of them also, but to say that the bloodline is trash free I think is going a little overboard.

[/quote] If you take them put of their intended environment there is no telling what they would do.

So in this statement are you saying that your dogs are only trash free at your house, but taken to say Alabama you would not say they were trash free. Not trying to be a smart *ss, just found that statement interesting

[MasonsBeagles]

I just bought a female from Ivan Troyer for 150 bucks and sold her after working her for 500 to a freind.

Ralph Some friend you are....ROFLOL